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I have been looking for my great grandmother's biological parents, John and Margaret Allen for few years. It is still unsuccessful.

Few years ago I found my great grandmother, Gertrude Allen's baptism record from Ancestry. It was Gertrude Rutherford Allen in Woolwich on September 1889. Rutherford was Gertrude's foster parents, James and Mary Rutherford. I still don't have Gertrude's birth certificate. She was born on 21 December 1888 but I don't know where she was born. Her 1891 census appears she was born in Lambeth. 1901 she (Rook) was born in Woolwich. 1911, her birth of place is unknown. I can't wait for 1921!

Mystery, early this year, I found out Gertrude’s step father in law, Edward Pearce’s mother was Charlotte Allen. I have no idea how relate between Gertrude and Charlotte. Gertrude was a visitor of Edward and his second wife, Ellen (my great great grandmother) in 1911 census in Woolwich.

How can I find out details about ages, birth of place, etc of John and Margaret Allen? They lived at 1 Rush Grove Street Woolwich for few months between August and October 1889.

I am trying to find John and Margaret Allen’s parents who would be my great great great grandparents.

Cheers, Steven.

Edit: Gertrude received some money from M.K. Allan (should be Allen) in 1908. She could be her mother and she came from C/- Post Office Caversham, Oxfordshire where unknown Mary Allen worked. It was from Dr Barnardo records via her son's foster home.

M.K. could be Margaret Kathleen because Gertrude and her husband, George had twin stillborn daughters' names were Margaret and Kathleen.

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Gertrude Rutherford Allen
Name: Gertrude Rutherford Allen
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1889
Baptism Date: 22 Sep 1889
Father's name: John Allen <<Labourer
Mother's name: Margaret Allen
Parish or Poor Law Union: Woolwich St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Greenwich

Address: Ruth Grove St ....might be Rush

Confusing.

For reference only. To place her.

She was baptised Gertrude Rutherford with parents as John (a labourer) and Margaret Allen

She appears on the 1891 (following your research) as Gertrude Rutherford with Parents James Rutherford a general labourer born Burgh Cumberland and M A born London as his wife and her moither

In 1901 she is Gertrude Look (on FMP) daughter of James a tinsmith born Carlisle Cumberland and Mary born Walworth

In 1911 she is Gertrude Rutherford with the Pearce family.


What information is given on her marriage certificate to George Baker in 1915?

The only way you will find out where she was born and her mothers maiden name is to buy her birth certificate

Hi,
You have probably tried these...

Births Jun 1889 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Allen Gertrude Greenwich 1d 1090
Allen Gertrude Annie Greenwich 1d 1048

Regards Vera

Looking at different options

RUTHERFORD, Robert Head Married M 37 1824 Police Constable
...
Cumberland VIEW
RUTHERFORD, Jane Wife Married F 40 1821
Westward
Cumberland VIEW
RUTHERFORD, Mary Daughter F 11 1850 Scholar
...
Cumberland VIEW
RUTHERFORD, James Son M 9 1852 Scholar
...
Cumberland VIEW

Civil Parish:
St Cuthbert Within Municipal Borough:
Carlisle Address:
2, Bake House Lane, St Cuthbert Within, Carlisle County:
Cumberland

LUCK, Mary Head Widow F 64 1817 Hawker
Carlisle
Cumberland VIEW
LUCK, John Son Single M 29 1852 Gen Lab
Carlisle
Cumberland VIEW


Civil Parish:
Caldewgate Municipal Borough:
Address:
Fleet, Caldewgate County:
Cumberland

EDIT: Think this may be LUSK.

Surely this would be the birth reg. ?

Births Mar 1889
Allen Gertrude Dartford 2a 477

The christening record gives her date of birth as 21st December, 1888.

Dartford is only 1 mile from Woolwich.

Dea x

Coming back to this again.

The birth above could be this one born Bexley which is in the same registration area

Gertrude Allen
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Thomas C Allen
Mother's name: Emma E Allen
Gender: Female
Where born: Bexley, Kent, England
Civil parish: Bexley
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Bexley
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Thank you all for your time.

Hi Astra, I have Gertrude’s marriage certificate. Her father was James Rutherford. Her witnesses were E. Pearce (my great great grandmother) and M. Basham (George’s sister). They were married in the Register Office at Woolwich.

Yes, that’s correct where you found Robert and Jane (Rook) Rutherford. They were James’ parents.

Who was Mary Luck/Lusk who was born in 1817?

I have Gertrude’s birth certificate whose parents Thomas and Emma Allen so it was not her. Because her biological parents were John and Margaret Allen.

Ginny, yes that’s them from Ancestry. So how do I find out where she was born. That's why I am asking for help. I have tried it for many years. She might never have a birth certificate. I have no idea where her biological parents’ marriage was.

Vera, yes I have tried with it and it is unsuccessful.

Dea, I have that her birth certificate. It was 04 Feb 1889 and her parents were Thomas and Emma Allen. So it was not my Gertrude.

Steven


Baptisms usually occurred in the parish in which the child was born and the parents lived


Occasionally, the baby might be taken back to the parish where its mother had grown up.



So ..... I think you might be able to assume that Gertrude was born at
1 Rush Grove Street,
in the Parish of Woolwich, London.




However, I am very puzzled by the information that Astra posted:-

"She was baptised Gertrude Rutherford with parents as John (a labourer) and Margaret Allen

She appears on the 1891 (following your research) as Gertrude Rutherford with Parents James Rutherford a general labourer born Burgh Cumberland and M A born London as his wife and her moither

In 1901 she is Gertrude Look (on FMP) daughter of James a tinsmith born Carlisle Cumberland and Mary born Walworth

In 1911 she is Gertrude Rutherford with the Pearce family. "



What is the connection between all these people?

I'm almost tempted to say that you have 2 or 3 Gertrude Rutherford's mixed up just from looking at the above!


What is the actual proof that you have that Gertrude Rutherford Allen born December 1888 and baptized September 1889 is the same child as Gertrude Rutherford?

Or that either of these 2 is the same as Gertrude Look?




sylvia

I am sure I have done work on this before. It seems very familiar. I have a funny feeling our trees connected but cannot work out where. Did you have another thread before?
LK

SylviaInCanada,

Astra is correct. It is only one Gertrude Rutherford/Allen. She was born on 21 December 1888 where her baptism record appears. My late grandmother told me that Gertrude's birthday was on 21 December. She was baptised on 22 Sep 1889 and she was fostered by James and Mary Rutherford on that date. So John and Margaret Allen were gone after James and Mary Rutherford took Gertrude.

I would hope Gertrude was born in Woolwich. But John and Margaret Allen lived at 1 Rush Grove Street for few months. I found some baptism records with same address. John McKnight was baptised on 01 Sep 1889 and Ada Cole was baptised on 03 Nov 1889. Both of them lived at 1 Rush Grove Street.

Look should be Rook where her family used Rook in 1901. Rook was James Rutherford's mother, Jane's maiden name.

LK, really, our trees connected, do you have Allen? Yes I had threaded it before to find Gertrude's birth certificate but it was unsuccessful. Now I am looking for her biological parents.

But where is the previous thread. There was a lot of work on there and it ould show us what has already been searched for. There are more records on line and available. You may have better results if we can see it.

Hi LK, oh dear, yes I deleted my thread becuase I thought it is not worth to keep that are unsuccessful. I never thought about it.

Can we get deleted threads back? I am not sure about it.

Errr No.


I seem to remember we made progress but needed more info.


Threads should not be deleted as the info in it may be found by some else in a few years doing a search by google who may have the answers you need.

Have you tried this birth:-


Name: ALLEN, Gertrude
Registration District: Hendon
County: Middlesex
Year of Registration: 1888
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Mother's Maiden Name: Not available before 1911 Q3
Volume No: 3A
Page No: 197

Kath. x

Rush Grove Street is a tiny street in an area where much of the housing was occupied by army personnel or those involved with the Arsenal. At the end of the street is a grad e 1 listed building (Residence of Commandant of Royal Artillery Barracks).It is possible that the Allan family were involved in the army and were maybe transient.

This may be irelevant but as you say it is strange that there were births for 3 babies at the same address in a short space od time.

1891 census - household transcription
Person: COLE, Ada J
Address: 79, Leyes Road, West Ham
COLE, Edwin Head Married M 26 1865 General Labourer
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COLE, Bessie Wife Married F 25 1866
St Keverne
Cornwall
COLE, Ada J Daughter Single F 1 1890
Woolwich
Kent
AMBROSE, John Lodger Single M 39 1852
Damerham
Wiltshire
Salisbury
MARTIN, Elizabeth Visitor Married F 66 1825
North Molton
Devonshire


Ada was baptised Oct 20 just 4 weeks after Gertrude was baptised.???