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London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: John Morris Mcknight
Record Type:Baptism
Birth Date:11 June 1889
Baptism Date:1 Sep 1889
Father's name:John Morris Mcknight
Mother's name:Jane Mcknight
Parish or Poor Law Union: Woolwich St Mary Magdalene
Borough:Greenwich


1891 Address: Acorn Villa, Little Heath, Charlton Next Woolwich, Charlton
SIBTHORPE, William Head Married M 22 1869 General Labourer
Portsmouth Hampshire
SIBTHORPE, Martha Wife Married F 22 1869 Woolwich Kent
MCKNIGHT, Jane Visitor Single F 20 1871 General Servant Domestic Dorchester
MCKNIGHT, John Son M 1 1890 St PancrasLondon

Putting that into context

Gertrude Rutherford Allen born on 21 December 1888
John McKnight Birth Date:11 June 1889
John McKnight Baptism Date:1 Sep 1889
Gertrude Rutherford Allen Baptism Date:22 Sep 1889
Ada Jane Coleborn 20 Oct
Ada Jane Cole was baptised on 03 Nov 1889

1881 census - household transcription
Person: MC KNIGHT, Jane
Address: 6, Rush Grove, Woolwich
MARTIN, Michael Head Married M 40 1841 General Labourer
Ireland
MARTIN, Julia Wife Married F 43 1838
Ireland
MC KNIGHT, Jane Step Daughter Single F 10 1871 Scholar
Dorchester
Dorset



Hmmm thinking

maybe Jane was not married as per 1891 census

Jane mcKnight was visiting William Sibthorpe in 1891.

In 1881 she was living at 6 Rush Grove mother Julia Martin

In 1891 The Martins were not at number 6
but at
1891 census - Address: 1, Rush Grove Street, Woolwich

40 SIBTHORPE, Isaac Head Married M 57 1834 Potman At Public House
Epping
Essex
40 SIBTHORPE, Fanny Wife Married F 39 1852
Horndean
Hampshire
40 SIBTHORPE, Charles Son Single M 19 1872 Arsenal Labourer
Shorncliffe
Kent
40 SIBTHORPE, Ellena Daughter Single F 13 1878
India
40 BONNY, William Lodger Single M 38 1853 Cab Driver
Blackheath
Kent

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

41 CLARKE, James Head Married M 38 1853 Sergeant Royal Artillery
Brighton
Sussex
41 CLARKE, Eliza Wife Married F 28 1863
Rochester
Kent


They must be connected to Jane somehow.
Born all over the place
Shorncliffe suggests army origins though.

William Sibthorpe is the son of Isaac so Jane McKnight lived at number 6 1881 and in 1891 visited the parents of the person living at number 1 and her baby was baptised from number 1 the year before. Hope you follow that.


Next to trace Ada's connection

On the 1891 for Ada I gave earlier there is an Elizabeth Martin visiting with them.

I too worked very hard on the original post. And I found the Rook family in 1901........ so maybe not worth you keeping all the info?! But because you have deleted it others have now wasted their time and efforts in looking at the same info.

There is NEVER a need to delete findings that are from this time period, GR keeps the info and it doesn't clog up your memory on the PC.

Now back to the chase.............. was a marriage for James and Mary ever found??? Could Mary not be a "blood" relative to Gertrude??

The 1881 census for James, never found?? Could he have been in the Army?? If this is possible wouldn't FMP hold any info?


Dee x

I think Bessie Cole mother of Ada was a Martin. I am still looking for confirmation

Julia mother of Jane McKnight became a Martin.

This is interesting

a long census report with some extractions

1871
Address: Royal Marine Infirmary To Green Hill Schools ???, Francis St, Woolwich, Woolwich
MARTIN, Michael Soldier M 29 1842 Ireland (2nd husband of Julia)

1871 census - household transcription
Person: MCKNIGHT, Jane
Address: Barracks, Dorchester Dorset, Fordington, Dorchester

MCKNIGHT, Robert Head M 35 1836 Ireland
MCKNIGHT, Julia Wife F 33 1838 Ireland
MCKNIGHT, Jane Daughter F 0 1871 Dorset

There is a John Allan in Woolwich in 1881 again in barracks

1881 census - household transcription
Person: ALLAN, John
Address: "army Service Corps Barracks, St Marys Parish", Woolwich

ALLAN, John Married M 30 1851 Private A S Corps
Bethnal Green
Middlesex

This cannot be a coincidence

Jane Knight's second child has a baptism address the same as Gertrude's address in 1901

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Robert Henry Mcknight
Name:Robert Henry Mcknight
Record Type:Baptism
Estimated Birth Date:abt 1893
Baptism Date:22 Jan 1893
Mother's name:Jane Mcknight
Parish or Poor Law Union:Woolwich St Mary Magdalene
Borough:Greenwich
27 Dicey Street Woolwich

1901 census - household transcription
Person: LOOK, Gertrude
Address: 27, Dicey Street, Woolwich
LOOK, James Head Married M 49 1852 Tinsmith Carlisle Cumberland
LOOK, Mary Wife Married F 48 1853 Walworth London
LOOK, Gertrude Daughter Single F 12 1889 Woolwich London

1911 Address: 21 Harden Street Woolwich
PEARCE, Edward Head Married M 62 1849 General Labourer Woolwich
PEARCE, Ellen Wife Married
16 years F 52 1859 Portsmouth
PEARCE, Mary Daughter Single F 12 1899 School Woolwich
PEARCE, Edward Son Single M 15 1896 Messenger Boy Woolwich
RUTHERFORD, Gertrude Visitor Single F 22 1889 Laundress Not Known

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Harry Allen Rutherford
Name: Harry Allen Rutherford
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1905
Baptism Date: 18 Jul 1905
Mother's name: Gertrude Allen Rutherford
Parish or Poor Law Union:Woolwich St John
Borough:Greenwich
Address: 27, Dicey Street, Woolwich


England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Harry Allen Rutherford
Name:Harry Allen Rutherford
Birth Date:29 May 1905
Date of Registration:Apr-May-Jun 1982
Age at Death:77
Registration district:Bury St Edmunds
Inferred County:Suffolk
Volume:10
Page:2164

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Harry Allen Rutherford
Name: Harry Allen Rutherford
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1905
Baptism Date: 18 Jul 1905
Mother's name: Gertrude Allen Rutherford
Parish or Poor Law Union:Woolwich St John
Borough:Greenwich
Address: 27, Dicey Street, Woolwich


England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Harry Allen Rutherford
Name:Harry Allen Rutherford
Birth Date:29 May 1905
Date of Registration:Apr-May-Jun 1982
Age at Death:77
Registration district:Bury St Edmunds
Inferred County:Suffolk
Volume:10
Page:2164

1911 census - household transcription
Person: RUTHERFORD, Harry Allen
Address: 24 Coronation Road Ipswich
COOK, Annie Susan Head Single F 44 1867 Care Of Children From Dc Bard Copdock Suffolk
HULL, Clara Amy Alice Boarder F 10 1901 School North Woolich Essex
ANGROVE, Elizabeth Annie Boarder F 10 1901 School Redruth Cornwall
RUTHERFORD, Harry Allen Boarder M 5 1906 Woolich Kent
WALKINSON, Minnie Boarder F 5 1906 Not Known

Looking at the original it is care of children from Dr Barnardo's and it has Dr Barnardo's crossed and booarder inserted over each of the children

I wonder about this one


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Mary Gertrude Ellen Rutherford
Name:Mary Gertrude Ellen Rutherford
Record Type:Baptism
Estimated Birth Date:abt 1906
Baptism Date:4 Dec 1906
Mother's name:Gertrude Rutherford
Parish or Poor Law Union:Woolwich St Mary Magdalene
Borough:Greenwic39 Westdale Road

Well done LadyKira, much to absorb there.

Wish Karen would come back. She hasn't opened my PMs.

So am I being a bit thick? Why would James Rutherford, with wife Mary and daughter Gertrude suddenly call themselves Rook in 1901?

They weren't living with any Rooks:

1901 England Census
about James Rook Name: James Rook
Age: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Rook
Gender: Male
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England

Civil parish: Woolwich
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Evangelist
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Woolwich
Sub-registration district: Woolwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 327
Piece: 564
Folio: 69
Page Number: 51
Household Members: Name Age
James Rook 49
Mary Rook 48
Gertrude Rook 12

I am having difficulty with this. So Gertrude Allen b 21/12/188, adopted by the Rutherfords, and baptised in the name of Gertrude Rutherford Allen, is the Gertrude Rook in 1901, with parents James and Mary, who were previously called James and Mary Rutherford. They are the adoptive parents of Gertrude.

James's mother was a Jane Rook, so we are told. Do we have any evidence of that?

It will take me some time to get me 'ed round the rest of it. Off to eat a Chinese.

Confused Meg.

1911 census - household transcription
Person: RUTHERFORD, James
Institution: The Workhouse, THE WORKHOUSE
RUTHERFORD, James Inmate Widower M 61 1850 Tinsmith Cumberland Carlisle

LK, that’s amazing of you to find it. I never see like that before. I cant remember your name before. Many thanks for your help. I see about 1 Rush Grove Road. That’s interested. I hope John might be worked for the Army. Perhaps I should look for his employee records from the Arsenal? That’s interested about John Allan in the 1881 census. Where was his wife?!

I am surprised about Robert McKnight’s baptism in 1893 where they lived 27 Dicey Street. I will try my best to find out if they are related to Allen. Thanks again for finding this baptism record. It looks like nearly found a clue one day, I hope.

Yes, you are right that Gertrude had first two children, Harry and Mary. So Ellen (I know that it was from Ancestry) should be Allen that I have a copy of her birth certificate.

James’ wife Mary Ann Rutherford died in 1909 at Woolwich.

Kath: Yes, I have seen it, however she died in Dec 1889 aged 1 year old at Hendon. Thanks.

Births Dec 1888
ALLEN Gertrude Hendon
3a 197

Deaths Dec 1889
Allen Gertrude 1 Hendon
3a 100

Dee, yes I agree with you that I should not delete some of my threads. I understand from now. Sorry about that.

However, I could not find a marriage of James Rutherford and his wife Mary Ann. I am still looking for their marriage. Few years ago, I ordered a marriage certificate of James Rutherford and Mary Armstrong in Carlisle with James’ father Robert and it was unsuccessful.

Colin: thanks for finding it in Google.

Madmeg, I undertand that it seems confused. I am try to explain correctly. (I am profoundly deaf).

I think James Rutherford might be in 1881 census where he was born in Scotland. It is very close to Cumberland. He worked as a general porter at Stockwell Fever Hospital at Lambeth.

Name: James Rutherford
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil parish: Lambeth
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: "Fever Hospital" Stockwell
Education:
Employment status: View image
Occupation: General Porter (Hosp Serv)
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 613
Folio: 96
Page Number: 19

Yes, I have a copy of James Rutherford’s birth certificate (I bought it in 2005) to appear that his mother’s maiden was Rook. Perhaps James and his family hide away from the law or something like that. I have Gertrude’s death certificate to appear that it was her father’s name was unknown Rooke.