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If anybody could assist me on a search it would be welcome.
I've identified a relative Thomas Morgan. The death certificate gives death as 11 Nov 1927 and that he was married to Mary Ellen.
He died at 63 years of age, so birth year should be c1864. I've found a marriage certificate (if correct one) which shows he was 20 in 1887. (so birth c1887)
The 1871 census record (if correct) appears to show born in 1866.
So could be born between 1864 and 1867.
1891 Census gives address of 5 Chapel Place and marriage to Mary.The census 1891 shows Thomas married to Mary. This says that he was born 1866 in Manchester.
I've checked both BMD and Lancs BMD for marriages of Thomas Morgan between 1885 and 1890 and there is only 1 reference to a wedding in Salford for Thomas and this also matches similar search for Mary - giving a surname of Connell.
I have this certificate and this shows father is Patrick and Mary's father is Bernard Connell.

The census 1871 census gives: Thomas Morgan Son Male 5 1866 and father as Patrick.
I can't find Thomas' birth certificate - I have sent for a number of Thomas Morgan birth certs in and around Manchester/Salford without sucess!
1871 census Father - Patrick born Ireland, mother is Margaret born England, Thomas and sister Sarah born 1867 age 4 living at Smiths Buildings, Salford.

My question is twofold, 1, can anybody provide assistance in finding the correct record so that I can obtain the correct birth certificate and 2 can anybody assist with tracing Patrick on the 1881 census please?

Thank you!

Just for our reference:

Thomas Morgan in the 1871 England Census

Name: Thomas Morgan
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1866
Relation: Son
Father's name: Patrick Morgan
Mother's name: Margaret Morgan
Gender: Male
Where born: England
Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: St Philip
Town: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Salford
Sub-registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Household schedule number: 83
Piece: 4021
Folio: 132
Page Number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
Patrick Morgan 34
Margaret Morgan 25
Thomas Morgan 5
Sarah Morgan 4



Thomas Morgan in the 1891 England Census
Name: Thomas Morgan
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1866
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Morgan
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Pendleton
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Salford
Sub registration district: Pendleton
ED, institution, or vessel: 41
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3207
Folio: 152
Page Number: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Morgan 25
Mary Morgan 22 - b. Salford
Margaret Morgan 3 - b. Pendleton
Sarah E Morgan 1 - b. Pendleton
Mary A Thompson 18 - lodger

Those are the records that I am working on.

I don't think it was compulsary to register births before about 1872. I may be wrong??

I can't find him on the 1881 but that census could be missing.

Iv'e also looked for a Thos Morgan.

I wonder if this is his sisters birth?

Name: Sarah Morgan
Registration Year: 1867
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Salford
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 24

that could be his sister I suppose

Do you have the marriage of Thomas's parents? I am wondering if he was born prior to the marriage and registered with his mother's maiden surname. Just a thought.

hi
looked for 1881 census for sarah morgan no luck but found this could be her

Sarah Morgan
New York, Passenger Lists
Name: Sarah Morgan
Event Type: Immigration
Event Date: 1871
Event Place: New York City, New York, United States
Gender: Female
Age: 4
Nationality: England
Birth Year (Estimated): 1867

The Sarah Morgan who arrived in USA in 1871 was with parents Daniel & Annie and siblings David, Mary and Henry.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Dec 1866 (>99%)
Morgan Thomas Manchester 8d 281

Thanks for the updates and suggestions.
The only marriage (BMD ref) in Lancashire between 1861 and 1866 between Patrick Morgan and margaret is this one Sep 1864 at Wigan. BMD 8c p108. BUT - that doesn't seem to fit with the family living in Manchester/Salford - so I've discounted that.
Patrick doesn't appear on census records 1861 so "assume" he wasn't in England then - was in Ireland.

The Births Dec 1866 (>99%) Morgan Thomas Manchester 8d 281 - is a certificate I applied for and isn't him.

Hi Clive some questions for you
Does the death certificate state Thomas' occupation (I assume you have the correct Thomas Morgan death certificate - I'm not implying anything by this - I spent a while searching with a wrong cert.!)
If marriage cert you have is correct does it state Patricks occupation?

FamilySearch.org has another couple of options for you but they probably throw a spanner in the works
Thomas Morgan
mentioned in the record of Thomas Morgan and Mary Ellen Harrison
Name: Thomas Morgan
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Jul 1878
Event Place: Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Spouse's Name: Mary Ellen Harrison
GS Film number: 1885411 , Digital Folder Number: 4018552 , Image Number: 769
This marriage obviously is not in Lancashire and throws his date of birth right out but its a possibility.

Also found an 1881 census with Patrick as father but different mother!!
Thomas Morgan
England and Wales Census, 1881
Name: Thomas Morgan
Age (Original): 12
Gender: Male
Birth Year: 1869
Birthplace: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Relationship to Head of Household: Son
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Scholar
Address: 9 Meadow St
Event Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Record Type: Household
Affiliate Publication Number: RG11
Piece/Folio: 3593 / 71
Page Number: 31
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Patrick Morgan Head M 52 Ireland
Bridget Morgan Wife F 47 Ireland
Mary Morgan Daughter F 16 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thomas Morgan Son M 12 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
GS Film number: 1341860
Again this throws out possible DOB for your Thomas but who knows it may help.

These are all marriages with Mary Ellen as possible spouse in Lancashire with no date range given on FreeBMD

Marriages Sep 1870 (>99%)
MORGAN Thomas Manchester 8d 295
Marriages Jun 1878 (>99%)
MORGAN Thomas West Derby 8b 622
Marriages Jun 1896 (>99%)
Morgan Thomas Manchester 8d 452
Marriages Dec 1896 (>99%)
Morgan Thomas William F Prescot 8b 1074
Marriages Jun 1898 (>99%)
Morgan Thomas Chorlton 8c 1435
Marriages Jun 1900 (>99%)
Morgan Thomas Ashton 8d 1005

Clive - have you deleted your other thread on Thomas's marriage ?

There was a lot of info on there which might help but I can't find it ?

Dea x

That's why FMP showed that I'd previously accessed records for Thomas Morgan

How annoying!!!!! Especially as Clive has been a GR member for so long

I think this is where I bow out

Dea - the other thread is there - and you answered the query about that for which I replied with thanks.
Jacqueline - no need to be annoyed - it is a different query I have raised (albeit it is still part of my family). And as a matter of interest - I joined GR years ago - but haven't been an active member until Jan this year when I posted my "first" query. This is my second.

But thanks for those who have taken the time to reply. I'm sorry for being a pain in reaching out for some assistance. I'll know better next time.

Karin - in reply to your questions:
Does the death certificate state Thomas' occupation = it states he was a carter.
If marriage cert you have is correct does it state Patricks occupation? Patrick was a Hawker and alive
The marriage of Thomas and Mary Connell was in Catholic Church St John Evangelist.
I'm sure these certificates are correct and they do match the info I have and an earlier query I had was answered by Dea.
I was just after some thoughts on why I couldn't find Patrick and his family in the 1881 census. :-)

Thanks Clive I have found it now.

I just wanted to read through to see if there was any bit of info which might help on this particular query..

If anyone else wants to take a look through it for reference, it is here:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1348321?page=3

Back to this one now - I will have a dig around....

Dea x

Clive,

Can you give us ALL the details from that marriage cert to Mary Connell please, including and witnesses

Thanks,

Dea x

P.S. - just a useful point for future use - Just because his father is named as Patrick on there and it doesn't actually say he is deceased does not always prove that he is still alive. - It is often not noted whether someone is deceased or not.

Dea x

You can certainly discount that 1864 marriage in Wigan Clive as 'that' Patrick Morgan married Isabella McClarnin, the other female on the page.

Dea x