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(apologies folks, is this family below 1911 (from other 'Thread') now ruled out, have got lost!, don't shout at me!, lol)

Chris :)

1911 (Find My Past)
Thomas Morgan Head Married Male 44 1867 Pendleton Lanc Labourer
Mary Ellen Morgan Wife Married Female 44 1867 Hulme Lanc
Thomas Morgan Son Single Male 19 1892 Pendleton Lanc Street Hawker
May Morgan Daughter - Female 14 1897 Pendleton Lanc School
Florie Morgan Daughter - Female 13 1898 Pendleton Lanc School
Rosie Morgan Daughter - Female 7 1904 Pendleton Lanc School
Martin Morgan Son - Male 4 1907 Pendleton Lanc
Address 15 Rossall St Pendleton Salford (Russell St)
Parish Pendleton
County Lancashire
Census reference RG14 PN24038 RG78 PN1383 RD465 SD3 ED25 SN211

(Married 10yrs, 4 children born, 2 living, 2 died)


Births Mar 1903 (>99%)
------------------------------------------
Morgan Rose Salford 8d 18


Baptism: 30 Jan 1903 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire, England
Rose Morgan - filia Thomas Morgan & Mary Ellen (formerly Mackroy)
Born: 14 Dec 1902
Abode: 15 Russell St
Godparents: Alice Gill
Baptised by: Stephen Wigmore
Register: Baptisms 1901 - 1908, Page 105, Entry 2
Source: Original Register at LRO Preston

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

It's unfortunate that some members still think that, because a member joined many years ago, they know how to use these boards.


As the person who takes the time to alert people to their replies, I know this to be far from the truth and am getting tired of new folk being criticised for any errors they may inadvertently make.

I say this because it happened to me many moons ago, but I worked my way through it.


Clive, I would like to extend a welcome to you and encourage you to use the boards further - there are some very friendly and helpful people on here.....honestly! :-D

Thank you Cynthia - you are quite correct <3

Hi Chris - Yes, that is the correct family from 1911 it was NOT ruled out but this query is following Thomas Snr on there and trying to work backwards to find his parents and correct birth.

Some of those children were Mary Ellen's by her first marriage and she was 'living with' Thomas and they had more - It's all on the other thread but quite seperate to what we are now trying to find which is the 'origin' of Thomas Snr.

It certainly is a tricky one.......................... ;-)

Dea x

(ah!, thanks Dea)

Chris :)

My faith in humanity is restored. Thank you! :-D

Dea - all details from marriage certificate are:
22 Jan 1887 date of marriage at Church of St John the Evan in Salford.
Thomas Morgan 20 years Mary Connell 18 years He a bachelor and she a spinster He is a wine finisher she isn't marked as having a profession. He lives at 1 Ridsdale Street, Pendleton and she at 1 Bevel Street Salford. His father Patrick Morgan, her's Bernard Connel (Deceased) Patrick is a Hawker Bernard was a Farrier. Witness I(?) Cranshaw (or Granshaw) and Charlotte Cranshaw (Granshaw)

Chris Ho - The family details below are mine and correct. The one I've starred *** is Thomas son of Patrick. (or so it suggests from the marriage cert). And Patrick comes from Ireland. But Patrick and Thomas are missing from the census mentioned in the first post - which is what I'm trying to track so that I can confirm details linking patrick to Thomas.
1911 (Find My Past)
***Thomas Morgan Head Married Male 44 1867 Pendleton Lanc Labourer
Mary Ellen Morgan Wife Married Female 44 1867 Hulme Lanc
Thomas Morgan Son Single Male 19 1892 Pendleton Lanc Street Hawker
May Morgan Daughter - Female 14 1897 Pendleton Lanc School
Florie Morgan Daughter - Female 13 1898 Pendleton Lanc School
Rosie Morgan Daughter - Female 7 1904 Pendleton Lanc School
Martin Morgan Son - Male 4 1907 Pendleton Lanc
Address 15 Rossall St Pendleton Salford (Russell St)
Parish Pendleton
County Lancashire
Census reference RG14 PN24038 RG78 PN1383 RD465 SD3 ED25 SN211

(Married 10yrs, 4 children born, 2 living, 2 died)

Chris:- Re: the reference to
"Baptism: 30 Jan 1903 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire, England
Rose Morgan - filia Thomas Morgan & Mary Ellen (formerly Mackroy)
Born: 14 Dec 1902
Abode: 15 Russell St
Godparents: Alice Gill
Baptised by: Stephen Wigmore
Register: Baptisms 1901 - 1908, Page 105, Entry 2
Source: Original Register at LRO Preston"

I've never seen that before. That's very interesting and actually fits well with the evidence that Dea had shown in my first post. Thank you.

I didn't even know that you could access Baptism records. I'm assuming that Patrick and Thomas would be Catholic - if Patrick has come from Ireland. Especially as Thomas married Mary Connell (Irish name) in the Catholic church. Would Thomas's records be recorded on a baptism list (or not) because he is Catholic?

:-)

Cynthia - thank you for your welcome. :-D

Worth a look round on google Clive at things Catholic Baptisms, Lancs has that OPC, with Parish Clerks who are helpful, or local FHS groups, saying that, surprising what Ancestry and Find My Past hold, somebody else here may have better local knowledge, I tend to 'stab around in the dark' lol, with that area!.


http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/PendletonS/

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Salford/

http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/data/catholic_churches.php

Chris :)

(not sure who Godparent Alice Gill was, a couple about Salford 1911)

Thanks for the info from the cert Clive.

I was hoping that the witnesses might be related but having checked out William Cronshaw and Charlotte (nee Leach), it appears they were just 'friends' :-(

Still looking..............

Dea x

As an aside does anybody have a link to an ecclesiastical map of Pendleton and Salford for the period 1890? Thanks

You could try here:

http://goo.gl/e9apgj

or here:

http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/searchresources/mapsandatlases/onlinemapcollection/

Haven't got time to look on there just now but you might be lucky.

Dea x

Hi everybody...after a bit more help with a theory of mine.....if you please??

This is in relation to the Patrick Morgan
census 1871 living at 13c Smiths Buildings - St Philips ecclesiastical district Salford.

Patrick Morgan Head - Male 34 1837 - Ireland
Margaret Morgan Wife - Female 25 1846 - England
Thomas Morgan Son - Male 5 1866 - England
Sarah Morgan Daughter - Female 4 1867 - England

As I cannot find the family in census 1871 and nor can I find a birth for Thomas Morgan (that matches with the known father and mother) around 1866/65 in Manchester/Salford. So I turned attention to Sarah and I was able to find a birth record for Sarah Morgan
Possible birth:
Births Mar 1867 (>99%)
Morgan Sarah Salford 8d 24

I also found an entry for a Patrick Morgan on Census 1891.
Patrick Morgan
Inmate
Marital status Widower **
Age 57
Birth year 1834
Occupation General Labourer
Birth place Ireland

With this info I looked for deaths for Margaret Morgan before 1891. I found,
Deaths Dec 1882 (>99%)
Morgan Margaret 36 Salford 8d 67

So I sent off for the 2 certs, birth for Sarah and death for Margaret and found...
Sarah born march 1867 father = Patrick Morgan (spade labourer) and mother Margaret Morgan formerly Jones. They lived at back borough Street, Pendleton.

and Margaret died Oct 1882 in the Union Workhouse age 36. Husband is Patrick Morgan a labourer of 4 Back Borough Street Pendleton.

So I've linked Patrick, Margaret and Sarah between 1867 and 1882.
The only family that I can find on 1871 census shows 3 of these and Thomas but living at 13c Smiths Buildings - St Philips ecclesiastical district Salford.

I'm working on a theory that Thomas wasn't born in Pendleton/Salford (as I can't find a record for him) that they lived at Back Borough Street (where Sarah was born), they moved to Smith Buildings by 1871, left the area before 1881 (as I can't find them on this census), returned by 1882 and moved back to the Back Borough Street. Margaret dies in 1882, Sarah presumably gets married, Thomas gets married to Mary Connell and appears on the 1891 census.

Does my theory look plausible or can anybody find holes in it? Also, any idea, with this info why I can't find Thomas birth cert and why I can't find a marriage between Patrick Morgan and Margaret Jones.

Thanks
:-)

Well, it does all sound a very plausible theory Clive but I should like to find them in 1881.

I have been looking all morning but have not got any further.

I thought that address seeemed very familiar and I now know why !! - 4 Back Borough Street was the home of my paternal grandparents on 1911 census :-D :-D :-D

One thing I did find was a probable child for Patrick and Margaret which I don't know if you knew about ?

Baptism: 25 Jan 1874 St Peter, Greengate, Lancashire, England
Franciscus Augustus Morgan - filius Patricii Morgan & Margaritae
Born: 19 Jan 1874
Godparents: Martin Walsh; Birgita Walsh
Baptised by: Henricus Beswick M. C.
Register: Baptisms 1868 - 1877, Page 208
Source: Original Register at LRO Preston


(Smiths Buildings was 'Greengate' !! )

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1874
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
MORGAN Francis Salford Regent Road Salford RR/95/78


Births Mar 1874 (>99%)
MORGAN Francis Salford 8d 116

Sadly he seems to have died soon after birth:

Deaths Mar 1874 (>99%)
MORGAN Francis 0 Salford 8d 76

I will keep looking.......................

Dea x

Dea,

thanks for the info. I hadn't been aware of Francis.
Where did you do searches for baptism records?

Re: 4 Back Borough Street - is that the same Back Borough Street in Pendleton then? If so that's spooky!!

Yes - that is indeed the very same house in Pendleton !!!

The baptism I found on this site:

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

another useful one for the area is:

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/birthind.cgi

Dea x

And I've just realised that in 1890 at 6 Back Borough St, Thomas Morgan (son of Patrick) and Mary (formerly Connell) had a baby called Sarah Elizabeth.

When my grandparents were married in 1905 the cert shows his address as 6 Back Borough St. and hers as No. 8 !!

By 1911 they had moved all the way to No.4.

It's a small world isn't it ? - It certainly was in those days living in Salford :-D

Dea x

Hi Clive - still haven't found them.......yet !

I can't remember if you have the details on Thomas's younger brother John Henry - son of Patrick & Margaret. He was born in 1872?

Dea x