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Hi. you wonderful people!

I would like to ask for help again.

Bertha was my great grandmother. She married John Thomas Beckett Oct-Nov-Dec 1888.

Their children were
Beatrice 1891
Ernest/Earnest 1893
Allan 1895
May/Mary 1897
John 1899
Ivy 1904 (My grandmother)
Bertha 1907
Stanley 1909
Alice 1911

I can't find Berthas birth record or any census record of her until 1901.

Greares does seem like a surname and after a recent experience, I understand that unmarried mother did put the fathers surname as a middle name. I have searched variations with this as a consideration and still found nothing.

I have also searched Greves, Greaves.

In 1891 I have found her husband, as a visitor at 9, Alan Street, Leeds (THE SAME YEAR THEIR FIRST CHILD WAS BORN...COULD SHE HAVE BEEN IN HOSPITAL?)
In 1901 I found him(although he is calling himself William) and Bertha at 26, Rider Street, Leeds.
In 1911 I found them both at 23,Nippet Mount, Leeds

I would love help in finding her birth details and her whereabouts in 1881 and 1891 and her parents names etc.

Kind regards

Debi

1911 for ref

1911 census

Household information
Address 23 Nippet Mount Leeds
Parish Leeds
Town Nippet Mount Leeds
Type of Building Private House
Number of Rooms 3 Rooms
Inhabited Y
Reference RG14PN27096 RG78PN1550 RD500 SD5 ED5 SN317
Administrative County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Registration District Leeds
Registration Sub District North East Leeds
Enumeration District 5

Householder 1
Name John Thomas Beckett
Relationship to Head of Household Father
Condition / Years Married / Years
Gender M
Age 40
Estimated Year of Birth 1871
Occupation Dyers Labourer
Employed Y
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Leeds Yorks
Nationality English

Householder 2
Name Bertha Beckett
Relationship to Head of Household Mother
Condition / Years Married / Years
Total Children Born Alive 10
Children Still Living 9
Children Who Have Died 1
Gender F
Age 39
Estimated Year of Birth 1872
Occupation None
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Leeds Yorks
Nationality English

Householder 3
Name Beatrice Beckett
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Condition / Years Married / Years
Gender F
Age 20
Estimated Year of Birth 1891
Occupation Tailoress - Vest Hand
Employed Y
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Leeds Yorks
Nationality English

Householder 4
Name Ernest Beckett
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Condition / Years Married / Years
Gender M
Age 16
Estimated Year of Birth 1895
Occupation Cloth Finisher
Employed Y
Working at Home N
Industry Cloth Mill
Place of Birth Leeds Yorks
Nationality English

Householder 5
Name Allan Beckett
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Condition / Years Married / Years
Gender M
Age 16
Estimated Year of Birth 1895
Occupation Tinner Apprentice
Employed Y
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Leeds Yorks
Nationality English


Householder 6
Name May Beckett
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Gender F
Age 14
Estimated Year of Birth 1897
Occupation School
Employed Y
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Leeds Yorks
Nationality English

Householder 7
Name John William Beckett
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Gender M
Age 12
Estimated Year of Birth 1899
Occupation School
Employed Y
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Leeds Yorks
Nationality English

Householder 8
Name Ivy Beckett
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Gender F
Age 6
Estimated Year of Birth 1905
Occupation Juvenile
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Leeds Yorks
Nationality English

Householder 9
Name Bertha Beckett
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Gender F
Age 4
Estimated Year of Birth 1907
Occupation Juvenile
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Leeds Yorks
Nationality English
Householder 10

Name Stanley Beckett
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Gender M
Age 2
Estimated Year of Birth 1909
Occupation Juvenile
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Leeds Yorks
Nationality English

Householder 11
Name Alice Beckett
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Gender F
Age 6 Months
Estimated Year of Birth 1911
Occupation Juvenile
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Leeds Yorks
Nationality English

No,I havent applied for that, yet, awaiting arrival of others...spending way too much at the moment!
I recently sent off for a birth cert from my g g grandfather, who's mother was a unmarried mother and it didnt give any details, so wasnt worth the money I spent on it. If nobody can help on here, I will send off for it, but thought I would try the 'board' first before I did.

Cheers

Debi

For info

Transcription Record
Name Bertha Greares Pullan
Year of Marriage 1888
Quarter of Marriage Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District Leeds
Registration County Yorkshire
Spouse's Surname Only available for records after 1912
Volume Number 9B
Volume Page 614

This birth looks like it should be connected??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1891 (West Ridings of Yorkshire)

Pullan William Greaves Wharfedale 9a 141

Dea x

Why was Hannah called Bertha in 1911? Or have I read it wrong.
They had been married 22 years.

1901

BECKETT, William Head Married M 31 1870 Labourer In Dyehouse
Leeds
Yorkshire VIEW
BECKETT, Bertha Wife Married F 30 1871
Leeds
Yorkshire VIEW
BECKETT, Beatrice Daughter F 10 1891
Leeds
Yorkshire VIEW
BECKETT, Earnest Son M 8 1893
Leeds
Yorkshire VIEW
BECKETT, Allen Son M 6 1895
Leeds
Yorkshire VIEW
BECKETT, Mary Daughter F 4 1897
Leeds
Yorkshire VIEW
BECKETT, John William Son M 2 1899
Leeds
Yorkshire VIEW
RG number:
RG13 Piece:
4222 Folio:
109 Page:
10

Registration District:
Leeds Sub District:
North Leeds Enumeration District:
21 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Leeds St Mary

Civil Parish:
Leeds Municipal Borough:
Address:
26, Rider Street, Leeds County:
Yorkshire (West riding)

Interesting!

Hannah would have been 19, I wonder how that could fit???

I really love all the mystery... and solving it!

My loved ones dont quite 'get' it!

Debi x

I don't know !!! but I will post it anyway as I am going to bed soon !


1891 England Census
about William G Pullan Name: William G Pullan
Age: 1/12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Pullan
Mother's name: Florence Pullan
Gender: Male
Where born: Otley, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Otley
Ecclesiastical parish: Otley
Town: Otley
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England


Registration district: Wharefdale
Sub-registration district: Otley
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3529
Folio: 82
Page Number: 15
Household Members: Name Age
John Pullan 31 Tailor **
Florence Pullan 22
William G Pullan 1/12

at 15 Cambridge Terrace......

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 3529; Folio 82; Page 15; GSU roll: 6098639.

Dea x

Sorry Alviegal!

My mistake! Corrected it now, too many names in my head, sorry for the confusion.

Debi. x

This is him in 1911 which shows more of the 'Greaves' connection - I will have to leave it to you all though to see if it connects.

I will pick it up again in the morning.

GREAVES, John Head Married M 26 1885 Architect Halifax Yorkshire VIEW
GREAVES, Mildred E Wife Married F 24 1887 Northallerton Yorkshire VIEW
PALLISER, Elizabeth M Sister In Law Single F 21 1890 Farnley Near Needs VIEW
PULLAN, William G Nephew Single M 20 1891 Dental Student Ottey Yorkshire VIEW


RG14PN604 RG78PN22 RD8 SD1 ED14 SN296


Address:
84 South Hill Park Hampstead N W County:
London

Hope it helps.

Dea x

Thank you Dea!

Possible Greaves-Pullan marriages (in the higher classes, which they seem to be, a surname as a middle name is more likely to be the mother's surname, or a traditional family surname):

(edit - wrong about that - Bertha's husband was a labourer; it was the other Greaves/Pullan household that were up higher on the ladder, an architect etc.)

Marriages Jun 1890
GRAVES Florence Halifax 9a 669
Greaves Florence Halifax 9a 669
PULLAN John Halifax 9a 669
(I think that means that one is Graves)

Marriages Sep 1872
Greaves Sophia Manchester 8d 672
Pullan John Manchester 8d 672

Don't know whether they're couples, they just are possibles.



But ... doesn't his look like our Bertha in 1881?

Name: Bertha Greaves
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Sarah J. Greaves
Gender: Female
Where born: Wakefield, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Leeds

Sarah J. Greaves 40 - sack making, unmarried
Bertha Greaves 9
Joseph Wright 35


Births Jun 1871
Greaves Bertha Wakefield 9c 29


In 1891 Sarah J is a widow, and still making sacks:

Sarah Jane Greaves 50
Bertha Greaves 19 -- it says BECKETT, married, tailoress
Beters Greaves 3/12 -- it says Beckett, daughter?? I'd make it Peter, but I dunno.


The Beckett/Greaves Pullan marriage was 1888.

Perfect fit.

There she is?


Aha, Beters:

Births Mar 1891
BECKETT Beatrice Leeds 9b 395


So Debi, were none of your ancestors married? ;)

Oh Janey, I was wondering where you were?

I did find 'that' Sarah and Bertha in the 1881 census but with there being no mention of the name Pullan I wasnt sure. So I thought maybe Sarah married a Pullan (as you advised me with Gaunts/Wilks case) and I couldnt find one!

If this is her and it looks like it is, why would she marry using Pullan as her surname???

Thanks again Janey!

Debi :-)

Hmmmm,bit of a pot asking the kettle here methinks Janey......I seem to remember being told something similar in some persons ancestry who is not too far away???

;-)

It looks that way doesnt it Janey! Set of dirty sinful.... ;-)

They certainly havent made this easy for me!

I cant talk, I had my three children first THEN got married, least Im following a family tradition ;-)

Thanks again for your support

Debi x

It wasn't until I looked at the image of the 1891 census that I saw that Bertha had become Beckett, mistranscribed by Ancestry as Greaves simply because she was the daughter of Greaves, and her daughter Beters Greaves was really your Beatrice Beckett. ;)

Can you do Ancestry corrections or do you want that done? If you do, put info! Married whom and when, how you're related, info and contacts invited.


No question then, that's her. The Pullan? Hm. Hm. Maybe Sarah had lived with a Pullan between the censuses and Bertha went by that surname?

I think William Greaves Pullan is, unfortunately, a total coincidence.


FBG, tsk, I think not. The only unmarried ancestors of my own that I know of were victims of the law.

Samuel Littler married Elizabeth Rushland.
Sarai Rushland married ... I forget.

Anyhow, Samuel's and Sarai's respective spouses died, sometime around 1830 or something, so they got together.

But it was illegal to marry the sister of one's deceased wife, so they couldn't marry. They had a bunch of kids, though, my grx2 grfather among them. And they were the only prosperous ancestors in my tree! Oh, apart from the cabinetmaker in Canterbury ... whose father died in a workhouse in Wiltshire ... his parents having been deported from Dorset in 1791 as charges on the public purse ... One jokes, but how horrible it must have been.

To fess up, though, two of my female ancestors (and of course lord knows how many male ones) did reproduce before marriage, one known to have done so involuntarily. But they got married before my direct ancestors came along. ;)

Oh, well, and, who knows whether Hill/Monck's parents were married ... or who might have fathered him anyhow ...

Now of course in my generation, none of us has got married. Well, there were a couple of marriages of convenience, I must admit, but, ah, 'nuff said there!

Janey

I only have membership with Genes and they aren't showing the info you have found me on Ancestry...Don't understand why? VERY annoying!!!

When my six months run out, think I'm going to do a basic package on Genes, so I can still access the boards and sign up with Ancestry instead. More people on here seem to use that instead.

Cheers

Debi.x

1881 census is free Debi,so you should at least be able to see the transcript on Ancestry or Findmypast if GR dont have it?
I will let Janey tell you the merits or not of GR records. :D

This is how FMP have 1891 and as GR use their records it should be the same maybe?Janey will correct me if I am wrong....
GREAVIS, Sarah Jane Head Widow F 50 1841 Sack Maker
Leeds
BACKETT, Bertha Daughter Married F 19 1872 Tailoress
Wakefield
Yorkshire
BACKETT, Beters Daughter F 0 (3M) 1891
Leeds
Address 3 Shepherds Fold
Leeds County: Yorkshire (West Riding)

Good grief. Well, that's them, anyhow!

Search 1881 census at Ancestry free -- but I'm pretty sure you can't see the images:

bhttp://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=7572&enc=1

but that one you did find, I think.

Here's the full 1891 from Ancestry:

Name: Sarah Jane Greaves
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Head
Where born: Leeds

Name: Bertha Greaves (but the image says Beckett)
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Daughter
Parent's Name: Sarah Jane Greaves
Where born: Wakefield, Yorkshire, England

Name: Beters Greaves (but the image says Beckett)
Age: 3/12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Relation: Daughter
Parent's Name: Sarah Jane Greaves
Where born: Leeds


Births Dec 1841
Greaves Sarah Jane Leeds 23 353


Oh, wait.

1881

Name: Sarah J. Greaves
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Head
> Where born: Holbeck, Yorkshire, England
- definitely says "Un"married


but 1861?

Name: Sarah Jane Greaves
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Francis Jno Greaves
> Where born: Holbeck, Yorkshire, England

Name: Francis Jno Greaves
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Jane Greaves
Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Hunslet

No kids.


Marriages Sep 1859
Driver Elizabeth Leeds 9b 401
? Greaves Francis John Leeds 9b 401
? Harrold Sarah Jane Leeds 9b 401
Taylor Jonathan Leeds 9b 401


Deaths Mar 1872
GREAVES Francis John 33 Leeds 9b 359


So it looks like you're saved. They were married! if that's them.

Hi Debi,

I have found a tree on Ancestry which has a copy of that marriage cert.

It gives her father's name as Francis Greaves Pullan (dec) - looks like he was a Blacksmith? - His father was William Beckett - (dec) - looks like Engineer?

Both aged 19 and unmarried.

Witnesses were Geo. M Todd and Edith Radcliffe -

Her address at marriage - 16 Heed St and his - 13 Heed St.

The tree also has a lovely photo of Bertha.

Dea x

P.S. - If you can pm me your direct e-mail address, I can send on the details to you.

Dea x