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Dea! I don't suppose it gives any info about Francis's forebears? I mean, he was Greaves, not Greaves Pullan.

So for some reason Bertha was using the surname Pullan when she married, and touched up her father's name to match.


Francis's family in Leeds in 1851:

William Greaves 42
Rebecca Greaves 39
Elizabeth Greaves 18
Thomas Greaves 17
Francis Greaves 14
Jane Greaves 11
Edward Greaves 4
Sarah A Greaves 1
Rebecca Greaves 1 MO

and in 1841

William Greaves 30
Rebecca Greaves 25
Elizabeth Greaves 8
Thomas Greaves 7
William Greaves 5
Frances Greaves 3
Jane Greaves 2

so it doesn't look like a stepfather's name situation for Francis, for instance.

I do think that between 1881 and 1891, Sarah Jane Greaves must have partnered with a Pullan and Bertha was known by his surname.


And I was just reminding myself in my Reuben Cooper thread that that set of grx2 grandparents of mine weren't married at all ... well, not until nearly a decade after the birth of my gr-grparent, and 25 years after the birth of their first kid. Oops. ;)

I haven't had a lot of time to check through Janey but it doesn't seem to have any 'actual proof' of the name Greaves Pullen that I can see.

It is certainly given as her name on the cert and also her father's name on the cert.

The tree has given this name also to Francis's father William (Greaves Pullan) and Rebecca (another tree suggested maiden name of Giles for her?).

I haven't found a census or anything else yet with them stating their names as 'Greaves Pullan'.

Will have to leave it until later before I can look further.

Sorry,

Dea x

Marks up another small "FBG was right and JC wrong"on the calender... :D

SO...

Bertha Greaves Pullman was born in June 1871 to

Sarah Jane Harrold 1840 and
Francis Greaves Pullan1838.
He was a Blacksmith.

Francis and Sarah married in Sept 1859

In 1851 Sarah was living at 96, Charles Street, Leeds, with

William Harrold 35 shoemaker
Ann? Harrold 33
Elizabeth 15 Flax dresser
SARAH JANE 10 scholar
John 6 scholar
Selina 4 scholar

When Sarah and Francis got married in 1859 they lived at 12, Nevens Street, Hunslet, Leeds. (census 1861)

1871- can't find Sarah, but Francis in a patient in the LGI hospital in Leeds, he died in March 1872.

1881-Sarah is now making sacks and lived at 28, Lands Court, Leeds with 9 year old Bertha, who was born in Wakefield. They also had a lodger...Joseph Wright 35 from Leeds.

1891-Sarah Jane. widow. sack maker
Bertha Greaves now Beckett 19. married. tailoress
Beatrice Beckett. daug. 3months.
All living at 3, Shepherds Fold, Leeds.
(Husband John was visiting his half brother William Mason at 9, Alan Street, Leeds)

1901 and 1911 already in thread.

A BIG THANK GOES TO EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD!
I couldn't have done it without you, as I wouldn't have found further information myself.

A BIGGER THANK YOU goes to Dea who found me a photo of my great grandmother Bertha and emailed it along with Berthas and Johns marriage certificate!

You are all so fantastic!

Your biggest fan

Debi, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I have posted the photo on Genes facebook page, if you would like a peep!

You're most welcome of course, and good for Dea on that picture. And good show on finding Francis before his death.

Any more problem ancestors up your sleeve? ;)

Hi Janey

I must get my file up to date first before I move on, but I'm sure there will be!

I briefly went crazy when I first started my tree at the beginning of April and flitted from person to person, like something possessed, then I settled down to some proper recording. There were family members I got stuck on and left, but I'm slowly getting through them, so I WILL be back soon requesting your help!

This is a fantastic hobby!!!

BIG THANKS

Debi

Looks like there was another child after Alice:

Births Sep 1913
Beckett Edna Greaves Leeds 9b 785

Rose

Given the spacing of the births, I bet this is the child who died:

Births Sep 1902
Beckett Stanley Leeds 9b 424

Deaths Sep 1904
BECKETT Stanley 2 Leeds 9b 358

Rose

Rose....Is that a chipmunk or a grey furry thing that runs up trees with half a walnut shell on its bonce blowing down a bamboo shoot in your pic over there??

No, Stanley was alive until the 80's and yes I knew about Edna, but only recently.

I dont think the lads, Ernest, Allan and John made it into adulthood, as there was never any mention of them. I only found out about them after joining Genes, maybe died in the war???

Debi. x

FannyByGaslight ,

It's a squirrel with a rocket launcher.

Rose

Debi,

I'm suggesting they had 2 children called Stanley. The first one died.

According to the 1911 census, one child had not survived.

Rose

Nice one Rose,a grey furry thing that runs up trees then.....
Can we launch the rocket at JC please?I am in a bad mood:)
Fan....or FBG.

Edits...To check for deaths in WW1 and WW2 have you been here Debi?

www.cwgc.org


I will stop annoying you lot now.....Night

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Be nice to find Sarah in 1871. It does seem odd there was only one child for the 12 odd years she was married and Betha happened to be born when Francis was sick. Perhaps Mr Pullan was really her father?

Rose

Good morning Debi,

I will send that message to the tree-owner on Ancestry in a little while when I am properly awake.

In the meantime, I think I mentioned last night that I had found that Bertha had a brother?

Well, this is him with mother Sarah on 1871 census:

1871 England Census
about Sarah Greaves Name: Sarah Greaves
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Leeds
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour
Town: Leeds
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Leeds
Sub-registration district: South East Leeds
ED, institution, or vessel: 44
Household schedule number: 29
Piece: 4550
Folio: 57
Page Number: 5
Household Members: Name Age
Sarah Greaves 32 ... married
William Greaves 3

at 23 High Markland Street.

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 4550; Folio: 57; Page: 5; GSU roll: 847135.


Further proof of his existance in 1881 when he is with his grandmother:

1881 England Census
about Ann Harrold Name: Ann Harrold
Age: 63
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818
Relation: Widow
Gender: Female
Where born: Rawdon, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Holbeck
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address: 6 Saw Mill St
Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower)

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Housekeeper (Dom)

Registration district: Holbeck
Sub-registration district: Holbeck
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4496
Folio: 43
Page Number: 30
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Harrold 63
William Greaves 13 Grandson - b. Leeds. - Mill Hand - flax.

NB - Also on here but not transcribed:
Arthur Harrold - unm. Head. Moulder (Iron) b. Leeds. (Probably Ann's son?)

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 4496; Folio: 43; Page: 30; GSU roll: 1342077.

Dea x

Hello again,

Well, I am 'fed and watered' so 'almost' awake now :D

I have sent a message to the 'tree-owner' on Ancestry and given her your e-mail address.

It says on her profile that she has been a member since 2006, but she hasn't been on in the past 6 months so we will have to keep our fingers crosses.

Let me know if and when she contacts you.

Dea x

OOhhh - I just had an exciting thought.................... ;-)

There is that site which is a spin-off from Ancestry - when you have a tree on Ancestry, all the details are automatically transferred to it.

I am sure it is a free site - you have to join but I don't think you pay anything.

I have checked and the tree IS on there so you should be able to see for yourself.

Address is:

http://www.mundia.com/gb

Give it a try and let me know how you get on.

To find the tree, I put in the name of Sarah Harrold born 1841 and several came up.

I then chose the one with 191 people in it which, I think, was the top one.

This brought me into the tree of kitwilliamson. - It was a bit awkward to navigate but the pictures are there.

The other trees may also be of interest to you.

Dea x

OOhh - a further thought !!

If you have a 'facebook profile', which I think you said you had?? - You don't have to join first but can just click at the top on 'sign-in' and enter your log-in details from there?

Dea x

Hello Dea!

My youngest is in bed now and I've all my Saturday cleaning and washing done, so its laptop time now!

Thanks again for all your time and hard work, I'm extremely thankful. I got on that site you mentioned and was able to view the tree. It was really good and it had other photos...one of my dad, around four screaming his head off!!!

I also emailed the tree owner and she got back to me. Bertha is also her great grandmother. Her grandmother and mine were sisters, not quite sure what that makes us?

Anyway we are meeting up in a couple of weeks to share photos and memories. I cant wait!

She is an illustrator of childrens books, which is quite exciting too.

She has also got back further than me, so I have lots of reading/writing up to do.

I will keep you posted of events and let you know how our meeting turns out, since its down to you that we are in contact.

ROSE.
Sorry, I didnt read your post correctly last night, now I can see that you meant TWO Stanleys. Interesting.

Thanks to all, especially the fantastic DEA!

Best wishes

Debi

Well how excellent all that is. And how terrific that you are going to be able to meet her. (All my newfound cousins of various degrees live in different countries, mostly on different continents, from me.)

Your relationship to her -- here's a good chart to bookmark:

http://genealogy.about.com/library/nrelationshipchart.htm

You have the same gr-grmother, so your relationship as gr-grchild to gr-grchild is second cousin (a real second cousin, not what people often mistakenly call a second cousin).

Your grandparents were siblings, which makes it sound a little more connected.

Bertha was the grandmother of your respective parents. So your parents were/are first cousins.

Amazing to think that your parents don't know their first cousins, isn't it?!

We had a family reunion in 1999. My mum and her cousin, and the cousin's kid and me, organized it at his rural home. Descendants of 5 siblings who came to Canada as children in 1909 with their parents, my gr-grparents. As people were arriving, my 12-yr-old nephew pointed at a car pulling up and said: What's SHE doing here? "She" was a girl in his class in Toronto whom he couldn't stand, nor she him. Neither had a clue that they were related, let alone had the same grx2 grandparents. This failed to alter their feelings about each other. ;)


But hey now, c'mon, the fantastic Dea ... I found the b'dy ancestors! Dea was off on a frolic with those rich people ... XP

;)