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My Great Great Great Grandad William Neal was born in Newbold Verny, Leics.
He was a coalminer and Married to Sarah Anne Neal.
Sarah came from Birmingham.
He is on the 1891 census and is living at 132 Stanton Hill, Skegy which is Nottinghamshire i think.

However, on the 1901 census, Sarah and all the children have returned to Birmingham living on Leek Street (or Lex street) we cant read the writing.. He isnt on the Census however.

The story is that he went to prison but we dont know what for, where , why etc or what happened to him.

Someone told us that he went to Prison in Birmingham.
Can any one help please

Hi

This looks promising

1901

Name:William Neal

Age:60

Estimated birth year:abt 1841

Relation to Head:Prisoner

Gender:Male

Birth Place:Market Bosworth, Leicestershire, England

Civil Parish:Birmingham

Ecclesiastical parish:All Saints

County/Island:Warwickshire

Registration district:Birmingham

Sub-registration district:All Saints

ED, institution, or vessel:His Majestys Prison

Piece:2853

Folio:156

Page Number:9

Household schedule number:1

since he was in prison in Birmingham I wonder whether this is his death

Deaths Sep 1912
NEAL William 70 Birmingham 6d 211

perfect match for age

Births Dec 1840
Neal William Market Bosworth 15 167

not seeing him in 1911 though


why can't I find Sarah and the children in 1901? wanted to look for Sarah in 1911 but don't have her details

ah, 1891

Name: Sarah Ann Neal
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William Neal
Gender: Female
Where born: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Skegby

William Neal 47
Sarah Ann Neal 37
John Wm Neal 12
William Neal 10
Florence Neal 7
James Neal 5
Emma Neal 2

but absolutely no luck in 1901

just for our information .................


1891 Census

Name: Sarah Ann Neal
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William Neal
Gender: Female
Where born: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Skegby
Ecclesiastical parish: Skegby
Town: Skegby
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England

Registration district: Mansfield
Sub registration district: Sutton in Ashfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 12

Piece: 2653
Folio: 91
Page Number: 68

William Neal 47
Sarah Ann Neal 37
John Wm Neal 12 b.ca 1879, Birmingham
William Neal 10 b.ca 1881, Birmingham
Florence Neal 7 b.ca 1884, Birmingham
James Neal 5 b.ca 1886, Skegby
Emma Neal 2 b.ca 1889, Skegby




1901 Census

Name: Sarah A Neal
Age: 43
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Bartholomew
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 54

Piece: 2838
Folio: 65
Page Number: 24
Household schedule number: 120

Sarah A Neal 43
James Neal 16
Emma Neal 13
Mary J Fox 40 Sister, Widow
Willie Fox 12 son of Mary J Fox
James Fox 9 son of Mary J Fox



The address is LECK Street

oops, I was still hunting w/o refreshing and edited to stick the 1891 in mine

how the heck I didn't find the 1901 I don't know ... ah yes, there she is, looking very young for her age :-)


is she even younger in 1911?

Name: Sarah Ann Neal
Age in 1911: 49
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Worksop
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Street address: 46 Central Avenue Worksop
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: Housekeeper Domestic
Registration district: Worksop

just a guess, Sarah likely knows where she was

Joonie.................

I couldn't find her under her name ................ I found Emma :-)

I couldn't even find Emma ... not my night! :-(

Emma was married by 1911


so that probably is Sarah!

I found Emma by finding a Public tree on ancestry, and then following Emma ...... they had the 1911 Census, and the marriage.


Everything did fit!!

Name: Emma Neal
Registration Year: 1908
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Mansfield
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 103
Records on Page:
Name

George Albert Hardstaff
Emma Neal




1911 Census

Name: Emma Hardstaff
Age in 1911: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1889
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Skegby, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Mansfield
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Street address: Brick Kiln Lane Mansfield
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Farmer's Labourer (Cowman)
Registration district: Mansfield
Registration District Number: 428
Sub-registration district: Mansfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Piece: 20346

Geo Alb Hardstaff 25 b.ca 1886, Mansfield, Nottinghamshire <<<< he's the Farmer's Labourer (Cowman)
Emma Hardstaff 22
Sarah Ann Hardstaff 2




the information re occupation had been written on the wrong line, but does apply to George




I looked for the children hoping to find either Sarah or William

I would suspect that even if that is Sarah in Nottinghamshire in 1911 and she has reported she is a widow, the 1912 death is George


quite possibly Sarah does know all about Sarah and the children and even George after 1901 though !

In 1891, William's birth place is shown as Newbald Verdon, Leicestershire


ancestry shows the spelling should be Newbold Verdon

Hello Sarah and welcome to the Community boards.



(I'll let Sarah know how to find her replies) :-)

Emma Neal was my Great Grandma. I remember her very well. She married George but he died before i was born.
Emmas daughter Sarah died young.

Miriam, Emmas Daughter was my Grandma. All on my mothers side. I think Emma had other children. Aubrey, Harold, George.

How can i find out if he was in Prison. I think the main prison there was Winston Green. Should i write to them?

Google Birmingham Prison Records

Sarah, you need to read the replies in the thread!

the very first message, from Gins, shows 'a' William Neal who is a prisoner in His Majesty's Prison in Birmingham

the way the information is copied can be confusing ... in a nutshell, that says:

1901
Name: William Neal
Age: 60
Estimated birth year: aboutt 1841
Relation to Head (of the institution): Prisoner
Birth Place: Market Bosworth, Leicestershire, England
Civil Parish: Birmingham
ED, *institution*, or vessel: His Majestys Prison


he has to be 'your' William Neal, because he was born the same year, in the same place, as your man, and there were not two William Neal-s the same :-)


Sylvia and I were both checking census records at the same time to make sure that the details for your William in 1891 matched up with the prisoner William Neal in 1901, so we both posted that 1891 census to show when and where your William was born, and indeed they match perfectly

so we can definitely say that your William Neal was in prison in 1901

I have just taken a look at the census image for 1901 to check the name of the prison, but it just says HM Prison, and your William's occupation was Market Porter.


Sylvia posted the 1901 census showing Sarah without William, just so we can all see the information you were talking about

then we looked to see whether Sarah and William were back together in 1911, but they weren't ...


and my suggestion is that your William is the man who died in Birmingham in 1912, but we haven't been able to find him in 1911

the death certificate would tell you whether he was still a prisoner when he died, or otherwise what his occupation and address were


I hope that is a little clearer now!

I did try to find William in 1911 .................. assuming that the death in 1912 was him, he should be on the 1911 census


but as JoonieC says, we couldn't find him


I did try looking by just using his initials, as you will find that many people in institutions (asylums, prisons, even sometimes workhouses) can be found under initials only ..... a way of keeping their privacy.


I could not find William anywhere



I did also look to see if I could find a court record for him ............. that could have told us what offense he was charged with and the length of his sentence


Nothing





One thing that you might want to try is to contact the Local Archives and Study Centre

ask them if they hold copies of newspapers for the period, and if they would be willing to search through them to see is they can find a report of his sentencing

OR ask if you can go yourself and search the records



There will probably be a charge

I forgot to mention that I found the list of prisoners at HM Prison in Birmingham in 1911 ... just by asking Ancestry for all people in Birmingham called 'prisoner' ... and looked for any William or any Neal who might be our man (in case his name was spelt wrong or something) ... but no he just wasn't there in 1911

Its the right spelling. no e on Neal.

Whats also odd is that two of his children Florence and William disappear off the census . I cant find their death certs either. What could have happened to them? Only 2 remain. 1, James i think was killed in action. Emma was my Great Grandma.

I cant see what happened to Florence and William junior.

Sarah, what I meant is that sometimes Ancestry misspells things when they transcribe records

NEAL could show up as HEAL for example, at Ancestry

We couldn't find anyone who looked like him, by name or age or date of birth



so the children in 1891 were

John Wm Neal 12
William Neal 10 born Birmingham
Florence Neal 7 born Birmingham
James Neal 5
Emma Neal 2

and the children in 1901 were

James Neal 16
Emma Neal 13
Mary J Fox 40
Willie Fox 12
James Fox 9

William and Florence would have left home by 1901 if they were living

from their birth records, neither had a middle name


the eldest, John William Neal, is in Sutton in Ashfield Notts in 1911, married



This is surely Florence in 1901

Name: Florence Neal
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Hucknall Torkard
Ecclesiastical parish: Hucknall Torkard St Mary
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Registration district: Basford
George Cartledge 59
Sarah H Cartledge 52
Mary Cartledge 73
Florence Neal 18

a possible marriage

Marriages Jun 1901
Arnold John James Basford 7b 353
CUTTS John Thomas Basford 7b 353
MARRIOTT Martha Alice W Basford 7b 353
Neal Florence Basford 7b 353

so this could be her in 1911

Name: Florence Cutts
Age in 1911: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Wife
Birth Place: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Bolsover
County/Island: Derbyshire
Street address: 28 St Whaley Thorns
Marital Status: Married
Registration district: Chesterfield
Johan Cutts 28 (it's John, not Johan) coal miner
Florence Cutts 28
John Cutts 9
Walter Cutts 8 born in Sutton

and unfortunately she had 4 other children who died



might this be Wiliam in 1911, his age overstated a little?

Name: William Neal
Age in 1911: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1878
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Street address: 5 Back 5 Oozells Street North Birmingham
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: Carter
Registration district: Birmingham
William Neal 33
Sariah Ann Pettifer 48 widowed housekeeper
Flarence Neal 10
Glayds Neal 5
Ellen Neal 4

he has a daughter Florence ...



Sarah once again can you acknowledge your replies, for instance that you have seen that William Neal was in prison in 1901?