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I am hoping someone can help me...i am wasting so much time and money researching the remaining one member of my family tree- who just won't be found. I've taken everyone else lines back to 1600s but this one seems determined to remain an enigma....

Ok so I have details from a living aunty who's mother this person was that she was from Manchester originally, problem being that she died when this person was about 5 so she doesn't have any other information.

The scenario is she's my mums grandmother (paternal) I have her wedding certificate (her second marriage cert) and her death cert-

I know she married william armin in 1912 in Grimsby. they had one daughter. Florence Alice May Armin but she was born in Poplar london for some reason. can only think the fact he was navy has something to do with it.

William died in 1915 (WWI) and she went on to marry Walter Lampey in 1918 in west Ham. which is odd as my grandfather (their son) was born in aug 1918 in Grimsby- yet they married in Dec 1918 in West Ham!? (I'm not convinced he is my real grandfather as they don't look alike, which would explain this anomaly but ill never know)

i know from the cert that her fathers name was George and he was a labourer/ gardener. though on the record for her first marriage her name is spelled Whitely.

she died in 1927 aged 34 according to the death cert- which makes her birth year 1893 which is consistent with the marriage cert which says she was 25 in 1918.

all certs i have indicate she was born between 1893. however i have been unsuccessful in finding her birth or any census information for her to trace siblings and her parents. there are no george whiteleys (tried all spellings) in manchester. I did find one document which was a baptism in manchester at St augustines parish which suggested the birthdate was 30 april 1892 but the baptism was 1893 which could be why all docs say 1893

that shows a mother called sarah

one of my sessions found a goerge whiteley marrying a sarah payne in bury in 1891 but now i can't even reproduce that search result so am unsure where i found it. an 'expert' i contacted found an entry in 1911 in grimsby for a florrie whiteley who is 19 and is a servant to an older lady in a street in grimsby a street away from where she had my grandfather. but thats is all we've collectively found

all efforts to find anything else are driving me nuts..

can anyone help me?

I'm just posting this as information and reference ...........


this is same name, birth date more-or-less correct, but parents wrong



Manchester, England, Non-Conformist Births and Baptisms, 1758-1912 about Florence May Whitley

Name: Florence May Whitley
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 10 Mar 1893
Birth Place: Manchester, England
Baptism Date: 30 Apr 1893
Baptism Place: Manchester, Manchester, England
Church: Central Hall (Oldham Street Wesleyan Methodist)
Father Name: John Whitley
Mother Name: Mary Whitley




this is the baptism for the one I think you found, father George, mother sarah


Manchester, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1915 about Florence Mary Whiteley

Name: Florence Mary Whiteley
[Florence May Whiteley]
Birth Date: 30 Apr 1892
Age: 1
Baptism Date: 19 Jul 1893
Parish: Newton Heath, St Augustine
Parish as it Appears: S Angustine, Newton Heath
Father's Name: George Whiteley
Mother's name: Sarah Whiteley
Reference Number: M140/4/3/2
Item Number: 3
Archive Roll: 828

???????????


mother wrong name, but father is a Gardener

1901 Census

Name: Florence Whitley
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1893
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Father: George Whitley
Mother: Fannie Whitley
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: South Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Chorlton upon Medlock
ED, institution, or vessel: 30

George Whitley 37 b.ca 1864, Peterborough, Northamptonshire, Gardener
Fannie Whitley 26 b.ca 1875, Bruikill, Lincolnshire
Florence Whitley 8

Address:- 23 Elton Street

What was your grandfather's name? Not seeing a birth that fits in 1918.

Do you have the first marriage cert? The address and witnesses might prove helpful in finding her in 1911.

Rose

So they only thing that doesn't fit is that George is listed as her father on her 2nd marriage.

The one that was a street away in 1911 was from Manchester. She is listed with John and Mary in 1901.

Might be worth getting that 1st marriage certificate.

Rose

http://twgpp.org/information.php?id=3277760

http://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1915-02Feb.htm


WW1 Naval Casualties Transcription (Find My Past)
First name(s) William
Last name Armin
Birth year 1892
Birth day 24
Birth month May
Birth town Durham
Birth county County Durham
Death year 1915
Death date 03/02/1915
Service number J.4036. (Ch) (J4936)
Rating Ldg Smn Service R.N.
Ship/unit Hms Clan Mcnaughton
Cause of death Killed or died by means other than disease, accident or enemy action
Cemetery Body not recovered for burial
Location of grave Not recorded
Relatives notified Wife:- Florence M. 64 Morant Street Poplar E.


(relating to William/Navy)

Chris :)

These are the only Lampey births in Grimsby

Births Dec 1919 (>99%)
Lampey William C Whiteley Grimsby 7a 1085 Scan available - click to view
Births Mar 1922 (>99%)
Lampey Dorothy L Whiteley Grimsby 7a 1114

Note that the boy was born one year later than your message says

This is the West Ham marriage

Marriages Dec 1918 (>99%)
Armin Florence M Lampay W.Ham 4a 797 Scan available - click to view

Lampey Walter Armin W.Ham 4a 797

William died:

Deaths Sep 1920 (>99%)
LAMPEY William C 1 Grimsby 7a 603

Here he is:

Births Sep 1918
Armin Walter Lampey Whitley Grimsby 7a 940

Rose

THE MARRIAGE YOU FOUND WAS 1889 NOT 1891


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1889 (>99%)
Barlow William Bury 8c 630
PAYNE Sarah Ann Bury 8c 630 ,,<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
SIMPSON Martha Bury 8c 630
Whiteley George Bury 8c 630 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

BUT - on 'that' marriage Sarah PAYNE actually married William BARLOW !!


Lancs BMD 1889 :
PAYNE Sarah Ann BARLOW William Bury, St.Thomas Bury CE10/1/372

Dea x

Maybe Walter Lampey couldn't marry Florence before December 1918 because he was away at sea till then.

The 1911 census for Florrie the servant could be the correct one, as the Florence with parents with John and Mary is with her parents on the 1911 census.

The 1901 census posted above by SylviainCanada looks promising.

The father, George Whiteley a gardener, didn't marry Fanny (Watson) until 1901. He married as a widower (certificate is on Ancestry)

George's full name was George Friend Whiteley. I can't see any marriage for him before 1901, so perhaps he considered Sarah to be his wife, although they hadn't actually married.

Link to the marriage cert:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12375-26014-38?cc=1788853&wc=M6FC-NT5:143838901,149318401,149366501

Dea x

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census

64 Rutland St Grimsby, Clee, Lincolnshire, England


Annie Rowston Wife Widow Female 52 1859 - Retford

Benjamin Arnold Rowston Son Single Male 21 1890 Engine Cleaner Cleethorpes

William Rowston Son Single Male 17 1894 Box Maker Cleethorpes

Tom Rowston Son Single Male 15 1896 Errand Boy Cleethorpes

>>>>>>Fanny Whiteley Visitor Married Female 38 1873 - Marchapple

>>>>>>George Watson Whiteley Son Single Male 9 1902 - Manchester

>>>>>>Constance Ameila Whiteley Daughter - Female 0 1911 - Grimsby

Pity Fanny wasn't with her husband. I can't find him anywhere. Can anyone else?

64, Rutland Street (1911 above) touches onto Hildyard Street, where Florence is in 1911. So they definitely seem to be the correct family.

Only problem is that this Florence was born in 1892 but the poster's Florence was born in 1893.

Hi everyone and thanks for all your help so far- can't believe how quickly you all replied!! I was in work and desperate to answer some of the questions flying back..

sylviaincanadas first post- I don't believe I've seen that entry before but its weird that a few of the entries i have seen state the birthday as 30 april .. i don't know if its just me getting obsessed or if someone else in the records mixed up a load of florence mays too!! just to keep me on my toes!

I also went right through the entry with George and Fanny- i believe george is listed as a widower when he married fanny and it was just before the census which means she can't be FMWs Mum but may have married her Dad.- and i concocted all kinds of theories that FMWs Mum had died when she was young and her father married fanny who is originally from lincolshire which would explain the move- and they went on to have a boy i believe however there is no death of a sarah whiteley (or any female whiteley) if that second scenario (the george and sarah one) were true. in fact theres no marriage or death for a george whitely (whatever spelling). presuming in those days a couple married a few years before their first child there are no marriages around 1890-1893 for george. there are no deaths of a george whitely between FMW birth in 1893 and marriage in 1918 (the wedding cert i have shows that her father was deceased by this time)

I actually have the birth cert for the one you listed - the john and mary but discarded it. john was a horse keeper!? not sure...

Rose- thanks so much- i think i will have to get the first marriage cert eventually, my grandfather was her second child he to add to the confusion was given her first husbands surname for some reason though he can't possibly be his (he died in 1915 and my Gf was born in 1918.. he is walter lampey armin as you later found!!

rose - what did you mean by this 'The one that was a street away in 1911 was from Manchester. She is listed with John and Mary in 1901'? how did you know she belonged to john and mary?

Chris Ho- thanks for the info on william Armin

Jacqueline- which site do you use - i noticed it has scans available?

Jacqueline and Rose- that entry for william C- appears to be a child they had after my Gf who died before y great aunty Dorothy.

Chris- thanks so much for some reason i wrote 1891 on my fam tree... but Dea... oh no you just put an end to that theory ... arrgh so now i don't even know who he married pre FMWs birth

christinaS- I'm starting to think you're all correct- the George and Fannie option is looking more likely- shame i deleted all my research from my tree when someone i paid told me it wasn't her... though i guess Fannie would be a step Mum and im still no further forward with FMW real mum and lineage. I have previously had G friend whitely in my tree.. and hoped he'd be easier to find but that unusual middle name doesn't feature again. was it usual not to marry in those days?

Choccy- yes thats the wife and son i thought George may have gone on to have- had all of that in my tree and then deleted it.. typical isn't it

Christina- would it be feasible that the marriage cert and death cert are incorrect isn't there usually some leeway of a year or two?

choccy- very good.. i didn't ever see the constance amelia entry- where'd you find that?

Christina- you're good.. i hadn't noticed before that rultland crosses hildyard- thats way too much of a coincidence- that she was visiting someone that close to FMW!

Dea - does that therefore mean
where did choccy find this?

urname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1889 (>99%)
Barlow William Bury 8c 630
PAYNE Sarah Ann Bury 8c 630
SIMPSON Martha Bury 8c 630
Whiteley George Bury 8c 630

if sarah married william barlow- that george married martha simpson??????????????