Find Ancestors

I wonder, could this be Sarah's death???

Name: Sarah Whiteley
Event Type: Death
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year: 1901
Registration District: Salford
County: Lancashire
Event Place: Salford, Lancashire, England
Age (available after 1866): 36
Birth Year (Estimated): 1865
Volume: 8D
Page: 78
Line Number: 294

Marriage for George and Martha (taken from Lancashire bmd)

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1889
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference

WHITELEY George SIMPSON Martha Bury, St.Thomas Bury CE10/1/373

The 1911 census shows that Fanny and George had another two children, who died. Unfortunately, not an unusual event at that time.

They may be two of the following:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
DEATH, BURIAL, CEMETERY & OBITUARIESView Image
NAME: Tom Whitley
BIRTH: abt 1909
DEATH: Jan 1909 - Grimsby, Lincolnshire

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
DEATH, BURIAL, CEMETERY & OBITUARIESView Image
NAME: Olive Leonorn Whiteley
BIRTH: abt 1906
DEATH: Jul 1906 - Grimsby, Lincolnshire

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
DEATH, BURIAL, CEMETERY & OBITUARIESView Image
NAME: Sarah Ann Whitley
BIRTH: abt 1902
DEATH: Jan 1902 - Grimsby, Lincolnshire

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
DEATH, BURIAL, CEMETERY & OBITUARIESView Image
NAME: John W Whitley
BIRTH: abt 1910
DEATH: Jul 1910 - Grimsby, Lincolnshire


You're right - there's nothing unusual about someone's age being out by one year.

Your grandfather would have been given the surname Armin as that was Florence's surname at the time.

Perhaps she married Walter once the war had finished or even after he divorced? It's possible he was married before to Mary Ann.

Rose

I don't know why but I keep looking at this one:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
North Street Crowle, Crowle, Yorkshire, England
Print household transcription
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
George Whiteley Head Married Male 48 1863 Labourer Farm Crowle Lincs
Annie Barnett Boarder Single Female 34 1877 - Winterley Cheshire
Edith Annie Barnett Boarder - Female 11 1900 School Crowle Lincs
George Johnson Barnett Boarder - Male 9 1902 School Armley Leeds Yorks
Gertrude Barnett Boarder - Female 7 1904 School Crowle Lincs
Beatrice Barnett Boarder - Female 4 1907 - Crowle Lincs
Print individual transcription View image
Individual transcription
First name(s) George
Last name Whiteley
Relationship to household head Head
Marital condition Married
Gender Male
Age 48
Birth year 1863
Occupation Labourer Farm
Birth place Crowle Lincs
Address North Street Crowle
Parish Crowle
Registration district Thorne
County Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Subdistrict Crowle
Enumeration district 3
Census reference RG14
Census reference RG14PN28264 RG78PN1615 RD513 SD3 ED3 SN297
Piece number 28264
Record set 1911 Census for England & Wales
Category Census, land & surveys
Record collection Census
Collections from Great Britain

Haven't got time to chase it around just now but will be back later.

Can anyone eliminate it in the meanwhile?

Dea x

EDIT:

Forget this one, I think, as I have found George and Annie on 1901 and it still says he was born in Lincolnshire. :-(

Dea x

At that time, if a married woman had a baby, it was assumed by the registrar that the father was her husband ................... even if the husband had been dead for 10 years (as I once found out for someone!)

That is, unless the woman herself said the baby's father was not her husband .............. and then, the baby's father had to be present at the registration (or send a letter) to acknowledge parentage.




But also, don't forget that no surname is on a birth certificate from that era for the baby. There is a surname for the mother (usually her maiden name) and one for the father ................. and the baby is then assumed to have the father's surname.

Following the George Dea has found

1901

Name: George Whitley
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1864
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Crowle, Lincolnshire, England
Civil Parish: Armley
Ecclesiastical parish: St Bartholomew
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Bramley
Sub-registration district: Wortley
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4211
Folio: 151
Page Number: 41
Household schedule number: 287
Household Members:
Name Age
George Whitley 37 Married, Gas Stoker
Edith A Whitley Barnett 1 Daughter
Annie Barnett 26 Servant, Housekeeper



1881


Name: George Whiteley
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relationship to Head: Brother
Gender: Male
Where born: Crowle, Lincoln, England
Civil Parish: Wortley in Bramley
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address: 33 Warder Street
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Iron Moulder
Registration district: Bramley
Sub-registration district: Wortley
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4505
Folio: 50
Page Number: 32
Household Members:
Name Age
Ann Harrison 32
George Whiteley 19
Benjamin Wright 36


Not seeing him in 1891 yet.

A tree on Ancestry has him married to Edith Annie Barnett and his father as Johnson. But this looks like the marriage he refers to in 1901 when he describes himself as married.


Name: George Whiteley
Birth Year: abt 1862
Age: 33
Marriage or Bann Date: 9 Apr 1895
Parish: Holbeck, St John and St Barnabas
Father's Name: Johnson Whiteley
Spouse's Name: Annie Harris
Spouse's Father's Name: Joseph Harris

to go back to chris post at 16:50- that sarah whitely death would have been such a find.. had Dea not found that the sarah payne i believed george had married, (from the baptism record where i had originally thought FMW's parents were sarah and george) but Dea said that sarah payne married william Barlow from the record which brought up the two possibilities in the earlier post the other being a martha!? so now I'm not even sure who his original wife was.

I'm quite convinced now that the George and fanny are the right people and appreciate all the additional children people are finding for them!! can't believe how nice everyone is to help me :-D i just need to find georges original wife (aka FMW Mum!) someone mentioned a lead above ill have to review...

rootgatherer- thanks if I'm going with the george and fanny combo- they married in 1901- on that cert online georges father is named henry. and he was a farmer. I'm going to keep looking in searches for georges birth.

thats good to know about naming at birth registration rose thanks!

Dea you might have something in that 1911 census with a george as the head- remember there was that entry for fanny and her son as a visitor and George wasn't on that one. id never found one with just george for 1911- i guess him with all those labourers and being a farm worker it looks like you found him?

ChristinaS thanks for finding those whitely children! so far i have no full siblings for FMW so its good to find some half siblings- even if they didn't survive!

A theory!!

If the George who married Fanny in 1901 was the father of Florence May and a widower he may well have been "married" (no marriage recorded) to Sarah ? (NOT SARAH PAYNE, she married William Barlow) and the death of the Sarah Whiteley in 1901 (March Q) could have been her which would mean that George had young Florence to look after and so married Fanny the same Q of 1901.

Rose - i wrote this- an entry in 1911 in grimsby for a florrie whiteley who is 19 and is a servant to an older lady in a street in grimsby a street away from where she had my grandfather.

and you said - The one that was a street away in 1911 was from Manchester. She is listed with John and Mary in 1901.

can i ask how you know that? how do you link her with john and mary in 1901?

i know i said i was thinking the george and fanny route was the way to go because fanny was born in lincolshire- which would explain a move back- however we can find a first wife for him and florences Mum which makes me doubtful. i want to look at that mary and john which SylviainCanada first posted- their daughter has the right birth year etc. ive started to check maybe if mary died etc as the sarah and george pairing their daughters birth year is a year out from all the certs i have.

thanks very much

oops sorry Rose, cchristinaS might have answered that already in her post of 11 Aug 2014 12:19 saying that florence with parents John and Mary was still with them in manchester in 1911.... back to the george sarah fanny theory..... :-(

hello all, I'm just wondering whether it's been considered that Florence was in fact Fanny Watson's daughter from before the marriage to George

this is Fanny in 1891 ... place of birth and sister's name Leonora match with her place of birth in later census 'Marchapple' and name of one of her (possible) daughters Olive Leonora Whiteley

Name: Fanny Watson
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1877
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Watson
Where born: Marsh Chapel, Lincolnshire, England
Civil Parish: Beesby in the Marsh
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Registration district: Louth
John Watson 58 ag lab
Fanny Watson 14
Agnes M Watson 12
Leonora Watson 11

Marsh Chapel is in Louth reg dist

conveniently there are two possible births, one to match the age on each census, pre and post marriage (and there is no death record for the first)

Births Dec 1872
WATSON Fanny Louth 7a 577
Births Sep 1876
Watson Fanny Louth 7a 619

the 1876 registration would certainly match her age in 1891

of course I can't find the family in 1881 to check Fanny's age

aha here she is in 1881 in Brinkhill in Spilsby reg dist (which is what the other later census gives as Fanny's Whitely's birthplace)

Mary A. Watson 37
Herbert J. Watson 13
Fred Watson 11
Charles H. Watson 8
Elizabeth A. Watson 5
Fanny Watson 4
Agnes M. Watson 2
Leonora M. Watson 1

so it seems the 1876 birth is the one


there is no Florence May Watson birth that stands out as likely to be your girl, but might this be possible?


I would also tend to the theory that this is the right Florence in 1911 given how close geographically to the subsequent birth

the details just for the record

Name: Florrie Whiteley
Age in 1911: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1892
Relation to Head: Servant
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Clee
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Street address: 26 Hildyard St
Marital Status: Single
Registration district: Grimsby


if it is the right one in 1901 in South Manchester in Chorlton reg dist

George Whitley 37 gardener
Fannie Whitley 26
Florence Whitley 8

she seems to have lived in Manchester as a young child and may well have thought she was born there, or been born there? ... I am only a little confused :-)

possibly?

Births Jun 1893
Watson Florence Chorlton 8c 836

Chorlton reg dist being also where George and Fanny married


is 64 Rutland Street (where George and Fanny were in 1911) the address where Florence's child was born?

I had been following that train of thought too Jooney and had also come up with this 'possible' birth for Florence:


Name: Florence May Watson
Event Type: Birth Registration
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year: 1894
Registration District: Spilsby
County: Lincolnshire
Event Place: Spilsby, Lincolnshire, England
Volume: 7A
Page: 585
Line Number: 127

As you say, it may be that she was brought up in Lancashire and so thought that was where she was born?

BUT, there are a few other 'possibles'. :-(

Dea x

The 1901 death for Sarah born 1865 may have been this one:

1891 England Census about Sarah Whiteley
Name: Sarah Whiteley
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George Whiteley
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Gorton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

View image
Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Ardwick
ED, institution, or vessel: 48
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3172
Folio: 95
Page Number: 33
Household Members:
Name Age
George Whiteley 32 confectioner - Ashford, Kent
Sarah Whiteley 26 Manchester
Thomas Pollett 49 cousin
Emma Pollett 16 "
Jessie Pollett 12 "
Thomas Pollett 7 "

This may even be the Sarah and George we're looking for. I can't find a marriage for this couple. I can't find a George Whiteley born in Ashford, Kent anywhere else. Nor can I find a George Whiteley born in Peterborough anywhere else. Maybe he wasn't always a gardener.

There's an awful lot of maybes there though.

I think Christina has ruled out the George and Sarah possibility there ... edit, no, that's not right really ... it's possible that is the right George, although I think a switch from confectioner to gardener is not likely ... but if it were the right George maybe there was a daughter Florence registered under that Sarah's surname if they were not married ?? but also our George in 1901 was born in Peterboro ... if that is our George ... which it seems to be


I dunno Dea, there isn't a connection to Spilsby reg dist for Fanny Watson I think

but she married George in Chorlton reg dist and they were in South Manchester in Chorlton reg dist in 1901, and Florence's (edit, sorry, I said Fanny and I meant Florence) place of birth in 1901 and 1911 (if that is the right Florence in 1911) was given as Manchester ... so I would take a look at that Chorlton birth as my first line of attack

young women in the early 1900s not uncommonly made their names a little bit fancier, often when they married ... adding a 'May' to give herself a middle name would not be surprising :-)

neither of my grandmothers had a middle name ... the one born in the 1890s was given a fancier version of her name by my grandfather who thought her name common ... my other grandmother always wanted one a middle name and used to say she would have wanted 'Mary'

Goodness.... i've been desparate to jump in.. but i'm at work just now.. must admit that JoonieCloonie and Dea's new line of thinking hadnt even crossed my mind!! good thinking outside the box!

so i havent had time to digest all of what you have posted yet.. ill have a good mull over it tonight when i get home.. so have people definately ruled out a George and Sarah coupling and or is the George and Fanny coupling still the main thinking for post Florences mum?

I think my great aunty (although only five when her mum died) had a definate sense that her mum was from Manchester. I dont think youd maybe understand another location when youre five, so im wondering if she actually had a lancashire accent which is what makes her so aware her mum was not from grimsby. a long winded way of saying she was maybe in lancashire for quite some time? (long enough to sound different)

I havent picked out much from skimming though just now but noticed JoonieCllonies question
'is 64 Rutland Street (where George and Fanny were in 1911) the address where Florence's child was born?
My grandfather (Florences second child Walter Lampey Armin- whos birthday it would have been today!) lol was born at '4 back of 103 kent street grimsby'

Florence was found working as a servant at 26 Hildyard street (unless anyone ruled that theory out) and Fanny was 'visiting' Rutland street in 1911 census.

Florences husband (walter Lampey) bought a house in jospeh street which the children were raised in when Florence died in 1927. theyre all too close not to be linked so i think you guys are onto something. the theory about Florence being Fannys daughter from a previous marriage certainly looks promising since theres no trace of any thing else for George and any other wife- the leonora link is a good find (unless again people have ruled this out for whatever reason....

oh will i ever get to the bottom of it!? lol appreciate everyones efforts though certainly opening up fresh avenues for me :-)