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sorry that should read joseph street- sometimes this auto corrects things to make no sense!

hi clarky ... I had bungled up some names in my post and I have fixed them, and also I added further thoughts to it about the George and Sarah couple ... have a look back at it now and it should make more sense :-)



a question about the baptism SylviaInCanada posted

Name: Florence Mary Whiteley
[Florence May Whiteley]
Birth Date: 30 Apr 1892
Age: 1
Baptism Date: 19 Jul 1893
Parish: Newton Heath, St Augustine
Parish as it Appears: S Angustine, Newton Heath
Father's Name: George Whiteley
Mother's name: Sarah Whiteley

I don't have access ... it shows that someone has corrected the name in the record ... can this person be contacted through Ancestry or do they give any info about the family?



Dea I was wrong about the possible Spilsby connection

Fanny Watson / Fanny Whitely lived in Brinkhill in 1881 and gave that as her place of birth in a census after marriage

Brinkhill is in Spilsby reg dist ... as I said when I posted that 1881 census, ooops!!

but by 1891 she was in Louth reg dist and by 1901 Chorlton reg dist

Just popped back in - have had the grandchildrem for the past 2 days + an overnight stay so I am a bit 'brain dead' but have we or haven't we discounted this very obvious birth reg - I can't see it in the thread?? :

Births Jun 1893
Whiteley Florence May Manchester 8d 255
..........

Lancs BMD:

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1893
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference

WHITELEY Florence M Central Manchester CEN/27/39


Dea x

Joonie ...............



good point re who did the correction on that baptism


This is what the note attached to the correction says


Florence May Whiteley rather than Florence Mary Whiteley
this is my relative and her name was florence may
Submitted by muppet760 on 14/03/2014




she could be contacted through Ancestry, as muppet760 is her site name on there




To add ..................


looking at the image of the Parish Register ..................


it is hard to say whether the vicar wrote May or Mary ......... could be May, but it's typical bad handwriting :-)


Address given is 11 Charles Street


Father occupation is Labourer

evening all- had a good look at everything everyone has contributed and just re-jigged my tree to go with fanny as florences Mum... it all looks very promising, from what i can tell most dates and places add up- only thing i havent searched for is a florence watson birth. Ive gone with the one listed by Joonie - until proven otherwise?! i think maybe you're right about choosing a random middle name as most of her mothers siblings seem to have a middle initial! and agnes' is M...

Births Jun 1893
Watson Florence Chorlton 8c 836

I like that the names and places all add up better than I've ever managed previously- and the theory is feasible.

to answer some of the questions- hahaha i made the correction suggestion to the baptism record as it looked more like 'may' to me than 'mary' as it had been transcribed?

Dea- i actually ordered the cert for that entry
Births Jun 1893
Whiteley Florence May Manchester 8d 255

at the time i didn't think it relevant and put to one side- I'm sure the dads name on it is john but ill double check in the morning..

thanks again people for the help :-)

haha, I actually meant to ask whether that might have been you Clarky who made the correction ... my name is all over records I'm not related to that I investigated in the pursuit of my own people too :-)

I think that Florence May Whiteley birth in Manchester is the one assumed to be the daughter of John and Mary, was that the names?, who was in Manchester in 1901

again here, I don't have access to Manchester baptisms at Ancestry, but it shows 3 Florence Watsons baptised in Manchester in 1893 but all show parents and I don't know whether they would show birthdates, to match up to birth registrations if possible

the Florence Watson birth reg I suggested was just an opening volley :-)
birth cert would be needed to rule in or out!

dunno if I'm making things fit but when I've been looking into the new theory that fanny was already florences Mum before she married george- i was looking for potential fathers for Florence (though i guess fanny wasnt listed as anything but a spinster when she married george)....... i found a florence may fletcher born 6 april 1893 to a fanny and william henry fletcher (hes a traveller) who live at 9 charles street- but quite strangely they live next door to George and sarah Whiteley (the one i found which is on the baptism record for florence may (mary) whiteley birthdate april 30th 1892 (baptised in july 1893) they live at 11 charles street... is this all too coincidental?

I've hit a standstill again with the two whitely children who survived- though they both have unusual names- I've not been able to trace who they married or when they died etc.. its really frustrating this branch of my tree!!! Constance amelia and george watson whiteley don't exist after the 1911 census!

what do you make of the coincidence? anything in it? not sure what ... maybe florence may is just a popular name!

You're making my brain spin Clarky.

When I first saw your post, I thought it looked like a great coincidence. Then it slowly dawned on me that they can't possibly be the same Florence. She can't have been baptised twice, to different parents.

Or maybe it was just me thinking along those lines, and you were thinking of an entirely different explanation. Related families perhaps.

hahaha i think its hysteria- I've been staring at the records for days and have made no progress.. apologies for making your head spin too!! its driving me mad.. i will probably have to admit defeat on this one!! its amazing how i can so easily find relatives from years before, yet a great grandmother eludes me!

Christina are you thinking of the Florence daughter of George and Sarah baptism?

I had thought that was not likely to be our Florence ... at least in any event it would not be consistent with the Florence daughter of Fanny theory ... if there is a baptism for a daughter of George and Fanny I have missed it ... ?

but there is an impossible duplication if our Florence is the one in the 1901 with George and Fanny ... she can't also be there with parents William and Fanny Fletcher :-)

(or ... is it 1891 when you say they live next door? in that case Christina is right anyway, two baptisms of same child different parents ...)

looking for the other Whitel(e)y children

Births Dec 1901
WHITELEY George Watson Chorlton 8c 817

could match this death as he would not yet have been 64 in early 1965

Name: George W Whitely
Birth Date: abt 1902
Date of Registration: Mar 1965
Age at Death: 63
Registration district: Rother Valley
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 2c
Page: 792

there is no other birth to match that death



if Constance lived past 1969 (when middle names and birthdates were first included in the deaths index) this could be a match

Births Dec 1910
WHITELEY Constance A Grimsby 7a 537

Name: Constance Amelia Holloway
Birth Date: 25 Nov 1910
Date of Registration: Aug 2005
Age at Death: 94
Registration district: Northampton
Inferred County: Northamptonshire
Register Number: A70B
District and Subdistrict: 670/1A
Entry Number: 200

however she is pretty surely Constance A Dove who married Holloway in 1939 in Brixworth (birth reg Mar Q 1911)



a Constance A Whiteley married Durham in Rother Valley in 1938

her age at death matches Constance Amelia Whiteley

Name: Constance A Durham
Birth Date: abt 1911
Date of Registration: Jun 1961
Age at Death: 50
Registration district: Rotherham
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 2c
Page: 578



aha yes, this puts both George Watson Whiteley and Constance Amelia Whiteley in Rother Valley reg dist


There are two Durham-Whiteley births in Rother Valley, 1941 and 1945
distinctive names

the son seems to have married in Rother Valley in 1963 and had two children there but died in 2007

the daughter may be on the 2014 electoral roll in Cleveland



who are the other two people who have Constance Whiteley 1910 in their trees at this site?

i think I'm just getting punch drunk haha or obsessed. when i found two names i have been searching for (fanny and george) next door to each other in the same street both with a florence may- i was hoping for some weird connection.

what pages do you guys all use for your searches? I'm using ancestry and i swear I've looked for the last two days and couldn't come up with anything. maybe I'm over looking now. i seem to get different things each time i search and none of the entries you guys put on here- unless i key in specifics. they don't appear in wider searches. i often use bmd too but thats not helping lately either!

i did plump for a Constance amelia pairing, though i saw the durham option i went with the Hughes one- can't even remember why i went for that one. and i usually use bmd to find children form a pairing but it didn't bring anything for whiteley/hughes funnily enough. so thanks for the info on durham and the children ill take a look.
I hadn't managed to find anything for george watson whitely though... resorted to checking military records for him and his father didn't find anything.

george whiteley (seniors) death is still a great mystery too- there are a couple of deaths in the east riding regiment during WWI but i don't think these are him.

i think I'm trying to make things fit now to try and get answers and i should maybe calm down! lol :-\

do any of you experts know what happens when someone like george takes on or adopts a child in those days? was it just a case of they changed their surname on things like the census? nothing formal like there is now?

definitely nothing formal, no formal adoption in England until after 1928

it was very common for a child to take on the surname of their mother's (new) husband

and then also to fabricate a father on marriage ... just name the stepfather, or give the real father's given name (and possibly occupation) with the stepfather's surname, etc. ...


I use Ancestry, and just try different variations on the theme of a person - given name plus date of birth, surname plus place of birth, until hopefully I hit something!

I do think the George and Constance who settled/died in Rotherham are almost surely the children from the 1911 census

aha

Name: George Whiteley
Birth Date: abt 1866
Date of Registration: Mar 1944
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Rother Valley
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9c
Page: 786



just adding this for info ... the Annie Rowston whom Fanny is visiting in 1911

Marriages Dec 1877
Kirk Anne E. Retford 7b 29
ROWSTON Benjamin E. Retford 7b 29

(they are in Cleethorpes in 1891)

so no apparent family connection with Whiteley or Watson


and just to reiterate my question :-)
who are the other two people who have Constance Whiteley 1910 in their trees at this site?

if they are descendants they could well know who George and Fanny were and know something of Florence

someone else has what I would think is her husband in their tree:

Name: Albert Durham
Birth Date: 17 Feb 1906
Date of Registration: Mar 1972
Age at Death: 66
Registration district: Rotherham
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 2c
Page: 1928


also one of the people with Constance has the son I referred to in their tree

however ... Clarky you have put that son in your tree as well, and it's not allowed to put living people in your tree here without permission
(you could do it for your own info by turning the name into something like 'johnsmith' and using it as the surname only, so it would not show up on searches, for instance)

rather than just put names in your tree I hope you are contacting the people who have those names and are actually descended/related :-)

JoonieCloonie - you're really good at this stuff,really appreciate your help! I've been doing it for years on and off.. but sometimes i miss the obvious or get too bogged down in things pondering between possible candidates - i go round in circles til i end up staring at the same entries over and over.. you're so good at finding links and ruling people out- something i can't seem to do or at least not as quickly as you! you been doing this ages?

i think I'm struggling because the whole of the rest of my tree stayed where they were born!!

I was asking about adoptions cos Florence May who appears to have been raised by a different father- then had three (living) children to supposedly two different men- and then i don't think the guy she said was his father even was- cos i found a pic and he looks more like the guy who raised him after her death (a family friend) she messed up her sons birth cert and his name- then he messed up his own marriage cert- he put a combination of Florences husbands names down as his father!

such intrigue - i did contact a lady from genes- who was directly related to the 'family friend' in question but she declined to reply- which is a pity cos i think she has a lot of detail and pictures. turns out Florences husband (walter lampey) had a child with the family friend... sounds like a lot of swinging went on if you ask me.

I'm amazed there were so many second marriages etc in those days. it actually took me years to find walter lampey in any census- he took on his mothers second husbands surname in two census... painstaking to find him as he reverted back when he left home! its all to keep us entertained!

i don't know about anyone with constance in their tree- do you mean on genes? or ancestry? if ancestry - no ones coming up with them in their tree for me?

where on earth are you finding all this information- i am getting nothing. I didn't know that etiquette... i have masses of living folk in my tree... oops.. all my family.

i use my tree as a working document.. I've added some of the people you have found and then i usually spend a lot of time figuring out if its a definite and changing things - i don't have papers only whats in my tree... if goes down I've had it!

i need to check my settings cos I'm not seeing anyone with these same people

apologies for adding living people- I've just never spoken to other researchers ever so i didn't know!!! :-(

the scenarios you mention are very common

Jane Smith marries Bob Brown and has daughter Mary Brown
then Jane Smith Brown marries Dick Black
and in the next census daughter Mary is called Mary Black
but when Mary grows up and marries, she marries under her real name Mary Brown
but ... she says her father is Dick Brown
or ... she marries as Mary Black and says her father is Dick Black even though he isn't, or makes up a composite father called Bob Black :-)

it's the finding them as children in censuses, if the mother remarries, that can be the real chore
... or, if you find them first with a surname you don't realize is a stepfather's, figuring out who they were born as (as possibly in the case of Florence here)


anyway ... just use Search Trees here to search for the Durham son you have entered on yours, and to search for Constance Whiteley born 1910

then click on More Info next to the name of the tree holder to send a message

remember that if you don't get a reply the person may not have declined ... they may have changed their email address and never got a notice of your message
(if nobody has pointed it out yet - you can check and if there is still an envelope beside the message you sent in your Sent folder, it has never been read by the person you sent it to)

re the living person thing, the completely unacceptable thing about this website is that even if you say 'hide living people' in your tree, it only hides them to someone you allow to see your tree ... it does not hide them from someone who searches for their name on a general Search Trees function


as for being good at finding stuff, oh yes, lots of people here have lots of practice :-)
and sometimes it is just easier for 'fresh eyes' to focus on what is known or on a particular train of thought when you haven't been looking at a situation for years and getting boggled and bogged down in all the possibilities!

So because my tree is on genes, I gather you searched on genes and it comes up with that person saying they're in my tree? Or can you see my whole tree? I don't use genes to search- find ancestry easier- dunno how I needed up with my tree on one and use another?! Think I went on genes to find school friends and need up getting embroiled in this!

So do you guys just help others out as a hobby- presumably your tree is finished? So you can nip into the community and pick up puzzlers? Good to know since I've done mine and my partners and anyone who listens...

You're so right about the sent items- that woman hasn't read my message!! There's an envelope sat to the left of it in the sent items box! Oh no I hope she checks in some time - I set that back in December!

So apart from people searching for themselves and reporting me will genes kick me off the site if I don't change my living relatives? I'm worried now!! Lol

Darn auto correct! Sorry

Clarky :-)

just hover your mouse over Search in the upper right of your monitor (you will have to scroll up from here)

You will see

Search All Member Trees near the lower right of the dropdown menu

click on that

search for the names with the dates of birth (I usually allow +/- 2 years for names that are not common as dirt, sometimes the name alone is enough on the other hand)

it will come up with matches ... you will not see the matches in your own tree however, only other people searching can see them (stupidly I think)

beside each match will be the name of a tree owner and beside that a 'More Info' button

you click that button and a page opens for sending a private message, bingo

this is different from using this site for actual records like at Ancestry, which yes, very few people do

it's for what started out as the main function of the site I believe - putting up a tree and searching for people with shared ancestors


as for the living relatives in your tree, I wouldn't put living people in on spec especially that you may not be related to, disguise their names as I suggested maybe

and select the 'hide living relatives' option so if you show someone your tree, your own living family members' details won't be visible


tree, finished ???? you jest :-D

but once you are hooked and you have picked up tips and tricks, it is hard not to want to use them, on other people's trees if need be, when your own gets a bit boring :-)