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Graham, I will post that 1861 census, in case anybody else is also looking:

1861 England Census
about Helen Robertson
Name: Helen Robertson
Age: 50 - age is not clear on image, but looks more like 58 to me, making DOB 1803
Estimated birth year: abt 1811
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Aberdeen, Scotland

Civil parish: Westminster St James
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: St James Westminster
Sub-registration district: St Jamess Square
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Helen Robertson 50 unmarried, Fundholder
Mary F Robertson 10 neice, b Gloucestershire, Bath
Henrietta Hewer 28 governess, b Guernsey
Ann Sutherland 52 nurse, b Inverness

Potty

Had a thought re Helen Stewart ..her granddaughter Ada Ward Robertson (daughter of Joseph ) b1871 could have been given Helen's maiden name of Ward as a middle name a common practice in Scottish families in the past in. fact I had an aunt Charlotte Ward Duncan b1887 in Leeds

Graham

I have checked all the Helen Stewarts living in Middlesex on the 1861. Also the Ellens - none of them look right. I also tried doing an address search but could not find a Brunswick Terrace, Commercial Road.

Actually, you cannot be sure that the death found is for your Alexander. There was certainly more than one Alexander Robertson who was a Master Mariner.

Maybe Joseph's address on his marriage cert will help?

This looks like the Mary F Robertson from the 1861 and her father was Alexander (presumably the brother of the Helen you found in 1861) but he wasn't a Master Mariner. Have you found any proof that Joseph's father was a Master Mariner? Is it mentioned on his LMA marriage record?

1851 England Census
about Mary Frac Robertson
Name: Mary Frac Robertson
Age: 2 MO
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Alexander Robertson
Mother's Name: Mary Robertson
Gender: Female
Where born: Bath, Somerset, England

Civil parish: Walcot
Ecclesiastical parish: Trinity
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Bath
Sub-registration district: Lansdown
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 85
Household Members: Name Age
Alexander Robertson 52 Merchant formerly in China, b Aberdeen
Mary Robertson 19 b Invernessshire, Craig
Jane Williamson 29
Ann Saunders 30
Mary Milven 22
John G Feere 49
Mary Frac Robertson 2 MO

Mary is obviously too young to be Joseph's mother. Mary Frances's birth cert would give her maiden name and her marriage to Alexander might show if he was a widower but if they were married in Scotland it would be before civil registration so probably the PR wouldn't give very much info.

Mary Frances's birth reg:

Births Mar 1851 (>99%)
Robertson Mary Frances Bath 11 22

Potty
My cousin confirms that Alexander was a Master Mariner and believes that he was present at Joseph's wedding.

Have contacted LMA (Oct 7th ) requesting whether Joseph's age /address /place of birth and names of his parents and witnesses will be recorded but so far have had no response.

Grateful for all your help

Regards
Graham

Graham

The LMA record of the birth will probably have just what the marriage cert from the GRO will have:

Names, ages, addresses and occupations of the two partners (although none of the women on mine have their occupations listed!) and their fathers' names and occupations and the names of the two witnesses. There is nothing to show whether or not the fathers were actually present at the marriage.

Even if there is an Alexander as a witness, it does not prove that he Joseph's father - he could be another relative. Relationships of witnesses to the partners are not shown on marriage records in England.

Potty

FTF have told me that Joseph's address at the time of the marriage was 32 Heritage Road( they don't say where!) father Alexander Robertson,Master Mariner, witness Emma Waters...also English marriage certs don't give place of birth of bride or groom.

. I.have 1851 Census 2 Sampsons Gardens,Parish St George,East Mddx Tower Hamlets.. John Waters(Head) widower.George,son,Ellen,daug, Emma,daug age 14 so it looks hopeful that this confirms we are on the right track

I found a Hermitage Road SE 19 and not too far away All Saints Church ,Upper Norwood,SE19 and in the hope that this is the place of the marriage have contacted them for any info in their records for 1857 which could help me further so now must wait to see if they respond!!

Regards
Graham

Potty

FTF have informed that marriage took place @ Parish Church of St George in the East and as I have not heard anything from All Saints Church accept that my hunch was wrong!..FTF also found that Alexander died at sea Nov 12 1861 but so far have not been able to establish his age on that date but at least it confirms that we now know that Helen Stewart was his wife...am also following up a clue that Alexander may have been the master of the brig Stella wrecked off Lytham and a body was washed ashore at Fleetwood with a bank receipt in the pockets bearing his name...am hoping my local Records Office may be able to assist me further with this one.
Regards
Graham

Hi Graham

This could be the death registration of the Alexander washed ashore at Lytham:

Deaths Dec 1861 (>99%)
Robertson Alexander Fylde 8e 379

Unfortuneatly, English death certs give very little personal information, but it should have his age at death.

Have you tried a search of newspapers at the time? I believe you can search Lancashire Libraries newspaper archives online.

Graham, I have had a look at your thread on FTF and I think you are wrong about the ship being the Stella - if you read the article Elaine posted, the Stella was wrecked off the east coast.

This site:

http://www.marine-heritage.connectfree.co.uk/morcbaywrecks2.html

has this wreck for the 12/11/1861:

Euxine 12/11/1861 A Brig stranded on Salthouse Bank in force 9 winds.

Potty

seem to have lost that report but remember that there was a brig totally wrecked off Lytham laden with beans and a helpful lady at Lancashire Records put me onto Fleetwood Museum so have rattled off an email to them asking if they hold wreck records and gave details re the body picked up in Fleetwood district in the hope that they can at least confirm whether we have the right one this time!! ... perhaps they may give a hint as to the name of the vessel he was on even his age and home address ever hopeful
Regards

Graham

Given the date you have for Alexander's death and the date of the wrecking of the Euxine, I would think that it is highly likely that the Euxine was Alexander's ship.

The cert for the death record I posted above might give you his age and home address.

Potty

Am waiting for info on this death record.. meantime working on the Scottish tradition of the use of maiden surnames as second christian names have tried to trace two, viz Harrison & Ward..My father,Harry Harrison Duncan b1896 ... 1871 Census Wallsall 15 Lower Hull Level shows:
Isabella Duncan(his grandmother) Head. 30( b Castle Douglas)
Phanuel son 9
William S " 7
John Eadie " 5
Mary Isabella Shaw neice 12
Isabella Harrison " 17 Milliner b Philadelphia US
this suggest to me that she was the daughter of Isabella's sister who married a Harrison

Ward has appeared twice...My father's sister Charlotte Ward Duncan b1887(Leeds) also !!
Ada Ward Robertson b 1870 (Glasgow) daughter of Joseph ...the name Eadie pops up again elsewhere but thats another story!!
I value your opinion
Regards

Found on LDS 1880 Census Head Jane Harrison(mother)
Isabella S Harrison age 26 Dressmaker Single b1854 P
Mother & Father both born Scotland
Graham

Graham

Yes, I agree about the tradition of using maiden surnames as christian names. There is also the Scottish naming tradition:

Scottish Naming Traditions
During the 1700s-1800s, those of Scottish ancestry often used the following pattern to name their children:

MALES

Eldest son - named after his paternal grandfather
Second son - after his maternal grandfather
Third son - after his father
Fourth son - after his father's eldest brother

FEMALES

Eldest daughter - after her maternal grandmother
Second daughter - after her paternal grandmother
Third daughter - after her mother
Fourth daughter - after her mother's eldest sister

Sometimes the order is reversed -- the eldest son is named after his maternal grandfather, etc

Joseph & Ellen's Children

Alexander - named for father's father
Joseph - named for father - not named for mother' father
Robert - named for father's oldest brother ?

So, Joseph and Ellen don't seem to have followed the pattern for their sons. Shame, because it might have given a clue to his mother' first name.

Ellen

Have had a reply from Glasgow City Council to tell me that they now charge £62 for a search ! and suggested I contact Mitchell Library( have already done so 10/10/2010 but as yet had no reply ) and Register House ,Edinburgh....just wonder if it is worth tryihg them
Regards

Graham - I don't think that contacting Register House will help. All they can do is search the same records that are available on Scotlandspeople.

Do you have a date of death for Ellen please? ( I have forgotten where we were with her). If she lived in Tradeston when she died then the most likely cemetery would be Craigton Cemetery. If you could locate her burial place (by searching cemetery records) and a lair number then it may be that the City Council would charge less as the search would be much simpler. You would be giving them the name of the cemetery and a lair number to check who was buried.


I am not sure that the Mitchell offer a service of cemetery searches as I have only ever done this in person.

rootgather
On the suggestion of person I spoke to at Glasgow C ity Council I contacted New Register House earlier and was told"send some details" so have posted off this am..had done. likewise with Mitchell Oct .10 but to date have had no reply..Ellen died May 5 1905 @ 10 Nithsdale Drive,Glasgow have Stat Death 644/130158,Tradeston shown as Widow of Joseph and note that her son J Robertson,78 Govan Hill,Glasgow was the informant of her death .. have not had any luck with cemetery records..so will have to see what answers I get ..if any!
Regards

Seeking any info on Robert William Robertson b 16 March 1872 in Glasgow have birth details 644/09 09 052 son of Joseph & Ellen Elizabeth(Waters) Robertson. Robert was believed to be a mariner who may have gone to Australia.Am still searching for birth/death records of Minnie Emma and her father and grandfather Joseph & Alexander Robertson

Hi Graham, nice to see you back! Did you get Joseph and Ellen's marriage cert or the Alexander Robertson death cert?

This census is posted on page 1 but posting it again to save having to keep going back:

1881 Scotland Census
about Robert Robertson
Name: Robert Robertson
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1872
Relationship: Son
Mother's name: Ellen Robertson
Gender: Male
Where born: Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Registration Number: 644/13
Registration district: Tradeston
Civil Parish: Glasgow Govan
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 26 Airlie Terrace
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 56
Household schedule number: 14
Line: 24
Roll: cssct1881_250
Household Members: Name Age
Ellen Robertson 46 b England
Charlotte Robertson 16 b Baillestone, Lanarkshire
Joseph Robertson 14 b Glasgow
Minnie Robertson 12
Ada Robertson 10 bGlasgow
Robert Robertson 9 b Glasgow