Find Ancestors

the info on the certificate is the same as recorded in the parish registers

Oh, I see. So you can check the parish registers?

parish registers, both originals and filmed copies, are frequently held at the relevant county record office

Quite a lot are online for certain counties but not the one you want

The plot thickens - or does it?

(See my summary posting from 27th April 2012 at 17:12)
I have just noticed that Ellen Eccleston's mothers maiden name is Butler.
Does that suggest that there is a previous tie up with the Butler family.
Looking back, when Ellen R Butler is shown on the 1901 census, she is listed as working as a Barmaid and a relative to the head of the family!

sorry David you have lost me there

where did you see Ellen Eccleston's mother's name please

If it is in your summary posting please could you post the link to it as it will be way down the boards by now. You can see it easily as it will shown under your own 'my threads' but we have to search for it

in 1901 when Ellen Butler says she is a relative she could be a distant cousin, closer relatives tended to state the actual relationship


edit

Ok got ellen's mothers name

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1855
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
ECCLESTON Ellen Preston Preston BUTLER PRES/85/39

so Ellen Roper Butler could easily have been a cousin

Thank you. What would be your advice as to the best way to find out what relation she actually was.

this may help

28 July 1914 marriage at Emmanuel, Preston

Albert Appleby 47 widower of 182 Emmanuel St occ = collector, father James Appleby book-keeper

Ellen Holden 43 widow Publican of 21 St Paul's Sq father James Butler (deceased) poultry dealer

Note - 21 St Paul's Sq was the address of the Edinburgh Castle Hotel where Florrie (& Ellen Butler) lived in 1901 & 1911

@lancashireAnn
I have now obtained the birth certificate for the Florence May Butler (mmn Butler) mentioned above in your post 27th April 14:28. It is not the correct one unfortunately. (Mothers name on the one is Jane and I am looking for an Ellen)
I think I might be back to square 1!
Regards

botheration!!

I was convinced that was the right one - as you say - back to square 1

was the birth date different to what you expected as well?

@lancashireAnn
Yes it is different, the birth date is 9th June 1892 and I wanted 25th May.
I am not certain of the year of her birth. On her marriage certificate , for the 5th April 1920, which I have (and 100% sure it is the correct one) she is shown as 26 years old. This would mean she was born on 25th May 1893. (The 25th May is also correct because my Mum knew her and gave me that date)
This is so disappointing!
Regards

it may be just the way the enumerator filled in the forms but it puzzles me slightly that in 1901 Florence is listed below Ellen Butler rather than below Richard which would be the norm if she was Richard's sister and often indicates the daughter of the person named immediately above in this case Ellen Butler

Also in 1911 she is described as Ellen Holden (Butler's) daughter not step-daughter

married in the name of Florrie but on the censuses as Florence - age on marriage indicates birth 1893 censuses 1892 - did she really know who she was??

could she have been actually a niece to John but brought up as his daughter

I keep looking at the baptism of a Florence Holden daughter of a John & Elizabeth at Emmanuel Preston in 1894 and wondering if there is a connection

All these are just wild theories trying to find some link for her birth.

@lancashireAnn
I think the censuses actually indicate a 1891 birth because her birthday was a month after the census was taken (She is shown as aged 9 in 1901 and aged 19 in 1911).
Her marriage certificate shows her father as John Holden, a Postman. The John R Holden we have been following was a Postman in the 1891 census, where Ellen R Butler is shown as a Boarder. Strange, that having been described as a Boarder she is then shown on the 1901 census as a relative to John R Holden.
Surely, there are too many things that tie up exactly though for the theory we formed a month ago to be incorrect but why is Florrie's birth so difficult to find?

I actually meant 1891 from the census!! - blame the late hour

I agree everything else lines up perfectly which is why I was trying out wild theories for Florrie herself on the premise that she may never have known anyone other than John Robert as her father even if he was not her biological one

@lancashireAnn
I can understand that there may be question marks over Florrie's father, although everything we have seen suggests John Robert is her biological father.
However, what I cannot understand is why I have been unable to find her birth.
I have found a birth for a Florence Butler in Blackburn in 1891 2nd Qtr, with a mmn of Butler. Is it possible she was registered in Blackburn I wonder?
Regards

It's not that far from Preston and unmarried ladies were often sent away from their home area for births. The reg dates are right but she was in Preston for the 1891 census - not that that really negates it

worth a try

@lancashireAnn
I think I will try to obtain the certificate for the Blackburn birth but I will specify that the birth date has to be the 25th May, if that is possible.
Regards

Florries does not seem to have been baptised at Emmanuel like all the other baptisms & marriage

Just been to the Lancs RO and checked baptism for 1891 to 1896 and no Florence that fits at all.

The Florence Holden c 1895 d of John & Elizabeth, John is an overlooker so no mistranscription there

@lancashireAnn
Sorry for the late response.
On Saturday, I ordered another attempt at a Birth Certificate.
I have specified:
- Lancashire
- 1891 (They will check a year either side)
- Name, Florence Butler
- Birth date, 25th May
- Mothers name, Ellen

This is really aimed at the birth in Blackburn but the General Registry Office can check all of Lancashire so I have gone for that option.
Fingers crossed!
Regards

@lancashireAnn
I have now received the birth certificate for Florence.
It is registered in Blackburn at 107 Anvil Street. I have checked the census for this address in 1891 (about 1 month before the birth) and the people living there are Henry E De Lacy and Lydia Norgate. I don't recognise either of these names, so not sure why the birth was there (yet!)
Father name is left blank. (not surprisingly)
Mother is Ellen R Butler.
Birth Date shown as 10th May, not the 25th I expected but I am happy that this is the correct one.
Thanks very much for your help.
Regards

glad it was right