Find Ancestors

Thank you both for your inputs to this thread this afternoon. It will take me a few days now to add this info to my tree.

ChristinaS
Would you mind please editting your earlier post to change the 1848 to 1852 as pointed out by lancashireAnn, just to keep the thread correct.

Thank you very much
Regards

Yes, you're quite right lancashireAnn. I'm not methodical enough when I write things down, so I confuse myself as well as everyone else.

Thanks for "tidying up" behind me.

Christina - just to avoid confusion the marriage of Richard & Mary wa s1852 not 1848

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1852
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BUTLER Mary ECCLESTON Richard Preston Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston PRESTON/17/73

from lancashirebmd showing Ellen's previous name of Roper

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1848
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ECCLESTON * Christopher BUTLER Ellen Preston Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston PRESTON/12/36
ECCLESTON * Christopher ROPER Ellen Preston Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston PRESTON/12/36

from lan-opc

Marriage: 27 Nov 1815 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
James Butler - (X), of this Parish
Ellen Roper - (X), of this Parish
Witness: Thomas Bamber; George Riley
Married by Banns by: William Towne Curate
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1817, Page 186, Entry 181
Source: LDS Film 94014

From findmypast:

James Butler married Ellen Roper

1815 - Preston (St.John)

From Boyd's Marriage Index, so no more information than that.

Christopher Ecclestone married Ellen Butler in 1848, so, presumably her husband James Butler had died.

Richard Ecclestone married Mary Butler in Preston 1852

These fit in with the family in the 1841 census for Preston

James Butler - 45
Ellen Butler - 40
Mary Butler - 20
Joseph Butler - 14
Ellen Butler - 12
James Butler - 6
Elizabeth Butler - 8
all from Lancashire

lancashireAnn found this one earlier:

www.lancashirebmd.org.uk

They have an Ellen Eccleston born 1855 in Preston with the mother's maiden name Butler. It doesn't give anymore information than that.

1861 census - Preston

Christopher Eccleston - head - 68 - Ashton, Lancs.
Ellen Eccleston - wife - 62 - Liverpool
Ellen Butler - grand dau. 30 - Preston
(I think granddaughter should be step daughter)

Living next door:

Richard Eccleston - Head - 30 - Westminster
Mary Eccleston - wife - 39 - Preston
Ellen Eccleston - dau. 6 - Preston
Elizabeth Eccleston - dau. - 3 - Preston

Living next door:

James Butler - Head - 26 - Preston
Elizabeth Butler - wife - 25 - Preston
John Butler - son - 3 - 1858 - Preston

@ChristinaS
That would also start to make sense because on the 1901 census, Ellen Roper Butler is shown as a relative to the head of the family (John R Holden)
I think somewhere in the past there is likely to be the name Roper as well, because it seems an unusual middle name for a girl.

Could I ask how you were able to find Ellen Ecclestone's mother's maiden name?
Thank you,

Following the families back on the censuses -

Ellen Ecclestone's mother's maiden name was Mary Butler born around 1822.

Mary Butler's brother was James Butler born around 1837.

James Butler was the father of Ellen Roper Butler.

So the two Ellens (the wives of John R. Holden) were 1st cousins.

glad it was right

@lancashireAnn
I have now received the birth certificate for Florence.
It is registered in Blackburn at 107 Anvil Street. I have checked the census for this address in 1891 (about 1 month before the birth) and the people living there are Henry E De Lacy and Lydia Norgate. I don't recognise either of these names, so not sure why the birth was there (yet!)
Father name is left blank. (not surprisingly)
Mother is Ellen R Butler.
Birth Date shown as 10th May, not the 25th I expected but I am happy that this is the correct one.
Thanks very much for your help.
Regards

@lancashireAnn
Sorry for the late response.
On Saturday, I ordered another attempt at a Birth Certificate.
I have specified:
- Lancashire
- 1891 (They will check a year either side)
- Name, Florence Butler
- Birth date, 25th May
- Mothers name, Ellen

This is really aimed at the birth in Blackburn but the General Registry Office can check all of Lancashire so I have gone for that option.
Fingers crossed!
Regards

Florries does not seem to have been baptised at Emmanuel like all the other baptisms & marriage

Just been to the Lancs RO and checked baptism for 1891 to 1896 and no Florence that fits at all.

The Florence Holden c 1895 d of John & Elizabeth, John is an overlooker so no mistranscription there

@lancashireAnn
I think I will try to obtain the certificate for the Blackburn birth but I will specify that the birth date has to be the 25th May, if that is possible.
Regards

It's not that far from Preston and unmarried ladies were often sent away from their home area for births. The reg dates are right but she was in Preston for the 1891 census - not that that really negates it

worth a try

@lancashireAnn
I can understand that there may be question marks over Florrie's father, although everything we have seen suggests John Robert is her biological father.
However, what I cannot understand is why I have been unable to find her birth.
I have found a birth for a Florence Butler in Blackburn in 1891 2nd Qtr, with a mmn of Butler. Is it possible she was registered in Blackburn I wonder?
Regards

I actually meant 1891 from the census!! - blame the late hour

I agree everything else lines up perfectly which is why I was trying out wild theories for Florrie herself on the premise that she may never have known anyone other than John Robert as her father even if he was not her biological one

@lancashireAnn
I think the censuses actually indicate a 1891 birth because her birthday was a month after the census was taken (She is shown as aged 9 in 1901 and aged 19 in 1911).
Her marriage certificate shows her father as John Holden, a Postman. The John R Holden we have been following was a Postman in the 1891 census, where Ellen R Butler is shown as a Boarder. Strange, that having been described as a Boarder she is then shown on the 1901 census as a relative to John R Holden.
Surely, there are too many things that tie up exactly though for the theory we formed a month ago to be incorrect but why is Florrie's birth so difficult to find?

it may be just the way the enumerator filled in the forms but it puzzles me slightly that in 1901 Florence is listed below Ellen Butler rather than below Richard which would be the norm if she was Richard's sister and often indicates the daughter of the person named immediately above in this case Ellen Butler

Also in 1911 she is described as Ellen Holden (Butler's) daughter not step-daughter

married in the name of Florrie but on the censuses as Florence - age on marriage indicates birth 1893 censuses 1892 - did she really know who she was??

could she have been actually a niece to John but brought up as his daughter

I keep looking at the baptism of a Florence Holden daughter of a John & Elizabeth at Emmanuel Preston in 1894 and wondering if there is a connection

All these are just wild theories trying to find some link for her birth.