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I wonder if Florrie stated her father was a postman on her marriage (not unusal for a father not to be described as deceased when he was, it probably dependede on how the registrar phrased the question about father's name) as her brother Richard probably was and John Robert worked for the GPO when he married

John R. HOLDEN Head M Male 24 Preston, Lancashire, England Mail Porter GPO (Csm)
Ellen HOLDEN Wife M Female 25 Preston, Lancashire, England Dressmaker
Richard HOLDEN Son Male 6 m Preston, Lancashire, England

Source Information:
Dwelling 270 North Rd
Census Place Preston, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1342012
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 4229 / 16
Page Number 25

@lancashireAnn
It may be worth me re-stating the facts I know to be correct:
1) Florrie Holden's father was John Holden (source - her marriage cert in 1920)
2) Florrie's mother was known as Mrs Appleby from 1946 until she died in 1954 (source - my Mum knew her and confirmed this again yesterday)
3) Based on 2) above, I realised she must have re-married to become a Mrs Appleby from a Mrs Holden)
4) I found a marriage for an Ellen Holden marrying an Albert Appleby in 1914.
5) I then found a death for a John Holden in 1907
6) I do not know the maiden name of Ellen, only her married name(s).

thanks David - it just helps to get a clearer picture of the line

it might be interesting to see the marriage details for the Appleby/ Holden marriage. I will look for you next time I am at the lancs Record Office. It is possible if the John Robert / Ellen marriages are right that she was John's 2nd wife and therefore not actually Florries birth mother.

@lancashireAnn
Thank you again for your continued help.
I am not sure why you think that Ellen may have been John's 2nd wife. They are on the 1891 census with 6 month old son and he is (only) 24 she is 25.
I would be very interested in any information regarding Ellen's marriage to Albert Appleby, especially witness names etc.
I do believe though that Ellen was Florrie's birth mother. Ellen lived with Florrie and her family for at least the last 8 years of her life and was well known to my Mum and Dad.
I can add another 'fact' to my list above
7) A. Appleby was a witness at the marriage of Florrie Holden to Harold Squires (my Grand Father) in 1920.
In answer to my original question on all this, I think I am beginning to think that Florrie Holden is the one shown with parents John R Holden and Ellen Holden in the 1901 census. I had originally been thrown a bit by the fact that John R is on the census as a Publican yet shown as a postman in 1920. He is however shown as a Postman on the 1891 census. The age of Ellen in the 1901 census didn't seem correct either because it was always thought in the family that she was 84 (and confirmed by the death indexes) when she died in 1954, whereas this would make her 97.
I just wanted to be 100% sure and I had also been hoping to find out Ellen's maiden name.

Just adding, looking at 1911 image, surname of Mother Elizabeth is Butler, not Holden...(must have something to do with lodger Ellen on other census?)

(apologies if already noted, just reading in again!)

Chris :)


1891

HOLDEN, John R Head Married M 33 1858 Postman
Preston
Lancashire
HOLDEN, Ellen Wife Married F 34 1857 Dressmaker
Preston
Lancashire
HOLDEN, Richard Son M 10 1881
Preston
Lancashire
BUTLER, Ellen R Boarder Single F 21 1870 Machinist
Preston
Lancashire
Piece:
3432 Folio:
80 Page:
9 Registration District:
Preston
Civil Parish:
Preston Municipal Borough:
Preston Address:
1, St Pauls Square, Preston County:
Lancashire

David

as I do not have access to census data I was only going on the assumption that the John Robert on the 1901 & 1911 censuses on p1 was the right person

in 1881 John R worked for the GPO

in 1901 John R was 42 & wife Ellen 44

in 1911 John R had died & widow Ellen is only 41 (ie 13 yrs younger than 1901 Ellen) which fits with the age at death that you have and the age of the Ellen Butler lodger in 1891

There is an Ellen Holden age 45 who died in Preston in 1902 which fits with the 1901 Ellen

Chris has said that the mother's name on the 1911 is Butler which fits with the 2nd marriage in 1905 to an Ellen Butler , (see page 1) his 1st wife also being called Ellen Eccleston if the other marriage (Richard's parents) is correct

@Chris
Very well spotted, regarding the surnames of mother and lodger from 1911 and 1891.
I had not noticed that!
I wonder if they were related?

I wonder if the 1901 Ellen Rutter has also been mis-transcribed and should be Ellen Butler

see my post above for the relationship between mother & lodger

1871

BUTLER, James Head M 36 1835 Lancashire
BUTLER, Elizabeth Wife F 35 1836 Lancashire
BUTLER, John Son M 13 1858 Lancashire
BUTLER, Ellen R Daughter F 1 1870 Lancashire
Piece:
4211 Folio:
7 Page:
7 Registration District:
Preston
Civil Parish:
Preston Municipal Borough:
Preston Address:
Atkinson Street, Preston County:
Lancashire


Births Sep 1869 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------
BUTLER Ellen Roper Preston 8e 551


(would agree 1901 should be Butler!)

Chris :)

@Chris
Regarding your post of today at 10:52.
I am wondering though if that could indicate that Ellen Holden's maiden name was possibly Butler because Elizabeth Butler is the shown as the mother to Ellen Holden but Holden was Ellen's married name so her mother would not be a Holden.

David, her Mothers surname is Butler, Ellen was previously Ellen Roper Butler...

(take another look at Ann's postings, she has given you the Marriage details)

Chris :)

@Chris Ho
@lancashireAnn
This is starting to make some sense even though it is incredibly complex. I have just checked the death record for Ellen Appleby (because she went on to marry Albert Appleby) in 1954 and it does quote her as Ellen R which would tie in with the marriage posted by Ann. I know for a fact that she died in Feb 1954 and her birthday was 1st September. I think I will have a go at summarising all this later.
Thank you both very much. Maybe I have been a bit too close to all of this to realise what had actually happened.

another thought that struck me

we cannot find a Florrie or Florence Holden born in Preston with mmn = Eccleston (like Richard's) and all births registered in Preston on lancsbmd have mmn

was Ellen Roper Butler in reality Florries mother and Florrie was actually born Flo Butler but brought up as Holden. Ellen Butler was already living in the pub before Florries birth so she could be the illegitimate child of John Holden & Ellen Butler

@lancashireAnn
I think I had come to that conclusion as well. I need to get her birth certificate to confirm that but I am not sure how to get it and be sure it is correct. I know (for certain) that her birthday was 25th May.

there is this one which is in the right qtr - lancsbmd shows mmn as Butler

Births Jun 1892 (>99%)
Butler Florence May Preston 8e 646

Might be worth a check in 'Search Trees' at top of page David.

Chris :)

I feel that this has been a very successful exercise and I have tried to summarise the findings below. I think it is facscinating but complicated!

On the 1901 census for the Edinburgh castle Hotel in Preston, the following people are listed:
- John R Holden is the Publican, Married aged 42
- Ellen Holden, wife aged 44
- Richard Holden, Son aged 20
- Ellen R Butler, Barmaid aged 31
- Florence Holden, daughter aged 9

On the 1911 census for the same pub, the following people are listed:
- Ellen Holden, is the Publican, widow, aged 41
- Florence Holden, Daughter aged 19
- Elizabeth Butler, Mother aged 75.

However and the clue appears to be the age of Ellen.
The Ellen shown on the 1911 census as a widow is not the same Ellen that was the wife in 1901.

because:-
In 1902 Ellen Holden, the wife died aged 45.
In 1905 (2nd Qtr) John R Holden married the barmaid Ellen R Butler.
In 1905 (3rd Qtr) John R Holden died.

It appears that Florence Holden was born as Florence May Butler in 1892 and is the daughter of John R Holden and Ellen R Butler. (This will need to be checked from her Birth Certificate)

Ellen R Holden married Albert Appleby in 1914.
Ellen (Roper) Appleby died in Blackpool, Feb 1954, aged 84.

Thank you to all who have helped me, in particular Chris Ho and especially lancashireAnn.

you're welcome David - I like a puzzle

I will see what I can do next week to look at the Appleby marriage in the registers to see if Ellen's father is named as Butler or Eleen is named as formerly Butler, late Holden

@lancashireAnn
That would be great but I thought you had to get the certificates to see that type of thing.