Genealogy Chat

How far back do they go?

It appears that my Gt.Gt.Gt.Grandfather enlisted in 1809, would there still be records of him?

Thanks,

M. Steer

Army or Navy?
What regiment?

Service records for those who were discharged to pension up to 1854 are indexed by name on the National Archives catalogue. Records aren't available online though. If your man isn't there, you would need to know his regiment to trace him through muster rolls etc. If you do know his regiment, there may be a little information on him at the relevant regimental museum.

Sorry ladies,

Army - The Bedfordshire Rgt.

M. Steer

How do you know he enlisted in 1809?

What age would he have been in 1809 or what age did he give when he enlisted - no proof was requried so it's a given age.

Patricia,

I came across his 'enlistment papers' on Ancestry today.

The document was dated 3.1.1809. His age is given as 20yrs. and 11 months.

M. Steer

So you have his papers - what else are you expecting to find - these are what are commonly known as a Service Record

The papers should give you a list of dates and places - you could look in muster rolls or medal rolls but you're really not going to get much more than what you have.

Details of medical - always an eye opener

Sometimes wife's name - remember families did travel with units

What's his name?

Do you need help in deciphering / understanding some of the army shorthand?

Patricia, I've not explained myself properly.

I accidentally came across this document on Ancestry. It's just one sheet of paper. I assume it's authentic.

It's dated 3rd January 1809.

The document is entitled Short Service. (Army Form B.265)

If you want to look (and can find it) the recruit is James Saywell from Croxton, Cambs.

Thanks,

M. Steer

Margaret

There are 32 pages for James b abt 1789 its not just the front page

I'll take a look and get back to you - I may be sometime

Margaret

Sorry to disappoint you but the enlistment date is 1899

Do you still want me to look through the document?

Patricia, there's something odd going on here.

He was dead in 1899.

You obviously have a different document to me - I'd be very interested to know which Document you have.

Thanks,

M. Steer

Margaret

Sorry - but I thin you have the wrong James.

The James I'm looking at is on page 3168

On the front page it says joined 3rd January 1899

Is this the same as your looking at - his record then goes on for the next 31 page

This James saw service in South Africa, WW1

Patricia, I have 'saved' a copy of the document to file. I would send it to you if I only knew how.

M. Steer

Margaret,

I had no idea that the "Short service" concept stretched back that far!

Even until recent decades, many employers had a system whereby they would dangle the carrot of a "short service payment" in front of their younger employees, after ~9 yrs service. This is basically them being permitted to get all their pension contributions paid back to them as a (not inconsiderable) lump sum at a time of life where they may be considering a career-change anyway.

Most would take the money and run because, after 10 years' service, the pension contributions are locked in until the annuity becomes due. With all the uncertainties about expected lifespan, "jam today" wins out over "jam tomorrow".

The employer thus wriggles out of any risk of having to pay far more out to a long-lived retired person than they had ever paid into the scheme.

The top document is an aide memoir so that the first thing the pension administrator sees upon opening the file, having received a chancer's written attempt to claim a non-existent benefit, is a clear notice that they have no entitlement. No need to read any further into their record.

I'm probably behind the times but I gather that the Armed services, to this day, get people to initially sign up for 9 years, with the option to extend when the time comes. A vestige of these old rules perhaps. (The pension scheme rules will probably be 2 yrs' minimum, these days, in line with other employers).


Doesn't help your query much but I thought you might be intrigued by the background stuff.


M

Margaret

We are looking at the same document

At the bottom of the first page it says
Bedford 3rd January 1899

I think you've misread the 9 as 0

Thought it was odd that someone who enlisted in 1809 was mixed in with WW1 papers!

Margaret

Please respond to my earlier post

15/10/2007 16:55:32
Margaret

Sorry to disappoint you but the enlistment date is 1899

Do you still want me to look through the document?


Thanks

Patricia,

I've used a magnifying glass - it's definitely 1809.

The 180 is printed the 9 is hand written.

You mention 'first page' - I've only got one page (on Ancestry) where are you getting the rest from?

I really do appreciate the time you're taking with this.

M. Steer