Genealogy Chat

Found this written as a comment on the burial record of a 5-year-old girl, in Fairford 1842. I know that suicides used to be buried this way - but surely a 5-year-old wouldn't be a suicide? She had been baptised, as were the rest of the family, and the burials of others in the family do not have any such comment (a sibling died the following year). Any ideas anyone?

I can't think of any reason other than she may have been ill with an infectious disease. Perhaps Olde Crone can offer a reason. xx

Yes, amend the title of your thread to include the words ''Olde Crone, please read''!! I did that and it worked - she's BOUND to know!! I could only think of things you have already covered.....not baptised...um.... and I can't think of any other?? That's a possibility Angel mentioned. Smallpox or similar, but I would have thought then it would have been at night but WITH the service??? If it had been an earlier year I would have said maybe they thought she was possessed, or a witch or something, but seems a bit drastic for a five year old in the 1840's Merry

I can't find anything written down, but I'm sure I've heard that children were buried without ceremony to reduce costs. I think that Dickens has some descriptions of the burials of small children or infants. It might be that the family were flirting with non-conformity at the time. Questions to ask are whether this is the usual minister making the comment and whether it appears by any other burials?

Thanks all for the replies. Brenda - all six children of the family were baptised in the Fairford parish church, between 1835 & 1845. Three of them died as infants and all were buried by the church, as was the mother who died in 1847. The parents were also married in the same church - so, no signs of any non-conformism there! No such comments regarding being buried without rites for the other two children, or for the mother. I no longer have access to the PR film, but didn't notice the comment on any other burials - it certainly isn't on any of the sheets that I copied. True she could have died of some nasty disease but I don't see why that would have precluded her from having a ceremony. The only other point of note regarding the burial entry is that in the 'By whom the ceremony was performed' column, the name is different to the other entries on the page. So possibly the local vicar wasn't in town at the time - but then surely his assistant (verger?) would have been qualified to give the ceremony in his place? Still a bit of a mystery!

Hi Richard If she died in 1842 there would be a death certificate for her, cause of death should be mentioned on her death certificate which may help. Karen

Hi Karen Yes I suppose that the death cert would at least give me cause of death. With all these child deaths I usually don't bother with the cert if I've found the burial, but in this case I may need to get it to satisfy my curiosity! Richard

Ooo-errr! For once I am stumped. A mean and nasty Vicar, burying a child, whose parents could not afford the cost? A specific request by the parents, to bury the child at night, without ceremony, but for what reason I cannot guess - unless they had all suddenly turned Catholic or Mormon or something and had had the ceremony somewhere else, which did not have burial facilities. Some kind of dreadful, infectious disease would not have been a reason - she would have been buried in a 'Plague Pit' - not sure how insistent the Authorities were in those days. Suicide??? Cannot imagine how a five-year-old would have been deemed to have done this, even if she had! Possessed of the Devil? Would have thought that would have called for the Full Works. Get the cert, Richard - here's a cyber £1 towards it. Olde Crone

Please Old Crone, spot this and satisfy our curiousity! Whoops! ok so you got ther before me!

Fascinating. Have you thought of looking if there is a Local History Society in that area? They might have the answer - or would enjoy making local searches. Cliff

Here's mu cyber £1 too... Merry

One from me too.....here you are Richard £1

I can't answer your query but recommend you read http://west-penwith.org.uk/justsx1.htm as it is a fascinating account of burials and local people and the church.Very sad all the children Kim

Just finished reading it , would recommend it , very sad but enlightening to daily lives in the 1890s and some amusing comments by the Sexton about some ofthe villagers. It is sad hou some years more children than addults were buried.Also if your family tree is from West penrith then you may recognise some names there. Such as Tresize, Oats, etc Kim

Kim West Penwith is where I found the death of a lady who suffocated in a cart of feathers!!(Also a woman who died from drinking boiling water from a kettle, and a man who fell into a ditch and refused to get out). Richard I know you are a careful researcher, so I hesitate to suggest this, but are you SURE it was a five-year old child? I do know that still-born, or newly-born but unbaptised babies were buried at night with no ceremony, a sort of kindly concession of the Vicar. Olde Crone

Hi OC! Unlike you to be stumped! Yes she was definitely five (actually she was 4½, born 17-Dec-1837 and buried 4-Jun-1842). I have her birth certificate and also the burial record quite clearly states 5. I also have her on the 1841 census as a 3-year-old, and she is missing from the 1851 (of course, since she died in 1842!). I could send you a copy of the burial record if you'd like to look for yourself (in which case message me with your email addy). As mentioned above, all BMD events for this family (both before and after this burial) are recorded at the Fairford parish church so it doesn't seem to have been a case of them turning to another denomination. For those that are interested, these are the details of the family. Where indicated with ''PR'' means I have a copy of the parish register entry. All events were in Fairford, Gloucester unless otherwise stated. William Hunt & Ann Telling: m.12-Oct-1834 (IGI & PR) John Hunt: chr.1-Feb-1835 (IGI & PR), d.12-Nov-1901 St Pancras (cert) Mary Anne Hunt: b.17-Dec-1837 (cert), chr.11-Feb-1838 (IGI & PR), bur.4-Jun-1842 (NBI & PR)* Elizabeth Hunt: chr.19-Jan-1840 (IGI & PR) Frederick George Hunt: chr.7-Feb-1841 (IGI & PR), bur.11-May-1843 (IGI & PR) Mary Hunt: chr.4-Jun-1843 (IGI & PR) Frederick Hunt: chr.20-Jul-1845 (IGI & PR), bur.2-Aug-1845 (NBI & PR) Ann Hunt: d.18-Dec-1847 age 33 (cert), bur.22-Dec-1847 (NBI & PR) After Ann's death, William remarried, to Sarah Brindle - m.21-Dec-1850 Lechlade (cert). William died 29-May-1865 (cert & PR). *Mary Anne Hunt is the one who was interred at night without the service. This is the family in 1841: Market Place, Fairford William Hunt, 30 Ann Hunt, 25 John Hunt, 6 Mary A Hunt, 3 Elizabeth Hunt, 1 Frederick Hunt, 3M and in 1851: Fairford: William Hunt, head, 43, Beer retailer, Fairford Sarah Hunt, wife, 40, Beer retailer, Kempsford John Hunt, son, 16, Apprentice, Fairford Elizabeth Hunt, daughter, 12, Fairford Mary Hunt, daughter, 8, Scholar, Fairford Elizabeth Bond, niece, 13, Scholar, Kempsford Thanks for all the cyber ££ everyone - will order the cert and keep you all posted! Richard

Olde crone, seems a busy place for dying in interesting ways, the website tells of digging up family vaults and one incidence of children singing hymns very feebly.... Well worth reading. I had a thought , would they bury without service if the vicar was unavailable or the family couldn't afford to pay him? Or if they were in a rush or something . The penwith website seems to suggest they almost fitted the bodies where they had room next to other bodies in the same family? Certainly explained a few things to me , would recommend it.A good insight and it has some lovely descriptions of late funerals and disruptive ones. Also an incident where the people just climbed over the wall and buried the child without permission and the sexton trying to find out what crime they were guilty of. Richard - if you do find out let us all know. Good luck Kim

cyber £ from me too!! :-) Joy

Well, Richard, that seems pretty definite, doesn't it? I can't see from the information, any reason for this odd behaviour, other than the family were too skint to pay for a service, the Vicar turned a blind eye to the burial but wouldn't officiate and some lowly Curate saw to the burial and muttered a few prayers. How very, very sad, if this is the case - most Vicars had a small fund to see to the Burial of Paupers in a dignified manner. Even if he didn't, you would have thought the neighbours would have had a whip-round. I await the certificate with eager anticipation! Kim Yes, West Penwith was pointed out to me by another Researcher and we had a good snigger at the inventive ways these people managed to kill themselves. There is a local belief that everyone from this area was, and still is, not quite the full shilling. I have always thought it was one of those myths - every County seems to have an area like this, but after reading the PRs, I think there is probably a grain of truth in that idea! Olde Crone

Can you check whether there were epidemics around that date. If the cause of death was a highly infectious disease then they might bury as quickly as possibly whether or not night. MB