Genealogy Chat

I would like to know if I am stretching a point too far or if you think this is a valid assumption: I know my ancestor John Thomas Munro circa +- 1800 was an organ builder because it says so on his son's marriage certificates of 1846 and there was an organ builder's apprenticeship papers in the loft. I have seen evidence of organs built by the firm Dobson and Munro of 22 Swan St Minories - they are in museums now. I know he was married to Sarah who lived in Clerkenwell in 1851 and said she was a widow then. My sticking point has been in finding JT's parents. There was a John Thomas Munro christened in at ST Botolph's without ALdgate in 1783. His Dad was Hugh and his Mum was Elizabeth. He had a sister Isabella. I have found a will of an Isabella Munro spinster of 5 Swan ST Minories in which she names John Thomas as the executor. It was dated 1856. The witness is John Bunting. He is mentioned on the British Organ Builders website as an organ builder. If the executor of the will was my JT then how could the discrepency of Sarah (the wife) saying she was a widow in 1851 have happened? My head now feels as if someone has been in there with the Magimix!!!!

How exciting. Could John Thomas on the will be her son or nephew?

Hi Jennifer, My great-great-grandmother is listed as a widow on the 1891 census even though her husband was only living a few doors away! They had been separated for a long time and I can only think that she thought 'widow' sounded more respectable or she didn't want to go to the bother of explaining where her husband was and why she wasn't living with him. Of course, it could be that John Thomas was a family name and that the executor of the will was some other relation with the same name? Does she say in the will that he is her brother? Was probate granted to him? (If so, it proves he was alive!) Kate.

Isabella was a spinster so I don't suppose it was her son. As far as I know John Thomas's sons were Hugh Nathaniel (died young) James Hector (can't find any children) and Robert Hugh who is my ancestor. There could easily have been other John Thomas Munro's at the time (I know of one who was married to Eleanor and was a house decorator) but I doubt if there were any others who were organ builders. HOW DO I CHECK IF PROBATE WAS GIVEN TO HIM?

It would be unusual for John Thomas not to name a son after himself though. And many a spinster had children back then! I dont know a lot about wills, I mean could he have been named when she first wrote it and he died afterwards? Has a will for him not turned up? I also had an ancestor who is down as widow on the 1891 and working in a pub in Bermondsey but the hubby is alive and kicking with a 'housekeeper' and the son in Suffolk. You need someone like Trudy who worked for Probate.

As far as I know the Scottish naming tradition was to call the first son after the paternal grandfather (which he appears to have done) the next one after the maternal grandfather (could be I'm not sure) and then I am not sure what they would have done with the third son. Perhaps I missed a child who was an organ builder like his Dad? Good thought.

All the wills I have downloaded from the National Archives Documents Online have a bit after them which says where and when probate was granted, to whom and by whom. Doesn't Isabella's have anything like that? Kate.

this one says something that looks like Proped in large letters and then 'at London 4th February 1856 before the worshipfull WIlliam .... ..... of ...... John Thomas Munro .....executor to whom (can' read the rest) Is that the thing?

By the way, I don't think I ever asked you if you had seen this one on Scotland's People: Munro Hugh 20/10/1848 Sir, bart, of Fowlis Edinburgh Sheriff Court Wills SC70/4/5 VIEW (£5.00) (9 pages) Munro Hugh, Sir 23/10/1848 Baronet of Fowlis in the county of Ross and of Manchester Square in the county of Middlesex Inventory Edinburgh Sheriff Court Inventories SC70/1/68 VIEW (£5.00) (2 pages) I think it was Hugh Munro's will from Documents Online that you had before, wasn't it? Kate.

Yes, that bit you quoted would be it, it will say 'proved' at the beginning. I could transcribe the rest of that bit for you if you send it to me? Let me know if you want to and I'll send you my email address. Kate.

Yes - it was. Sir Hugh was the last uncontested owner of the title Baronet of Fowlis that my weird family seems to think they deserve. The IGI record from St Botolph's doesn't mention that the Hugh Munro mentioned was Sir Munro but then his marriage to Jane Law in St Marylebone in 1804 doesn't mention his title either. He was quite a horny old goat and not very honest so this could have been an earlier marriage that he wanted to keep quiet. WHo knows? It may be a Hugh who has nothing to do with FOwlis whatsover..,GRRRRRRRRR

Thanks Kate - if you send me email at [email protected] I'll send it over to you oops - they don't let you send email addresses - I'll send a PM

Are you sure the will was written in 1856? The date will be somewhere in the body of the will - usually at the start or towards the end where you get all the bit about the witnesses being in her presence and in the presence of each other etc etc and the testator signs.... Feb 1856 is when the will was proved. Merry

in the body of the will it says April 1855. (I'm learning here!) That is still after Sarah's delaration of widowhood. Perhaps he ran off to live with his sister?

Jennie - I've sent you an email, but for anybody who's interested, the will just leaves everything to John Thomas Munro of the same address as Isabella and appoints him as executor, but makes no mention of what relation he was to her! And the bit granting him probate doesn't say what relation he was either. So not much help, really. I've suggested in my email that Jennifer could get Isabella's death certificate and see if the informant was John Thomas, and if it says what relation he was on there, but it seems unfair that she will have to spend another £7 to get that after £3.50 for a will one paragraph long! Kate.

Thanks very much Kate. I received the email beautifully transcribed and legible - what there was of it! I will order the cert as I'm very curious but I agree it is a bit of a swizz. I will nudge this thread up when I get the cert. It will be when I get back from holiday - two weeks sailing in Italy :)

just for reference: the 1811 Pigots London and commerial Dierctory has a company called Dobson and Munro, Organ Builders on Swan St, Minoreis Benjamin Dobson, organ builder of Swan Street Minories Will was proved 19 January 1824 neither of which will help you prove if he was still alive in 1851 but might prove useful should you have to search outside the box for clues to when he died Zoe

oooh - they made a lovely organ didnt they http://www.morrismuseum.org/static/collections/guinness/highlights15.html

Thanks Zoe - you've made me think of looking for that will - he may have mentioned his business partner - thank you!

Lyla - you're a darling and have saved me an enorous amount of trouble. I was going to go up to FRC today and look up the 1841 census using the Berry ST address on the boy's birth records. So it seems old JT had left before 1841 even. On the boy's birth record JT is called a Traveller. On their marraige certificates he is an organ builder. Does the record say that Sarah was a widow? This is where my confusion comes in. If Sarah was a widow in 1841 then who is the JT in Swan St mentioned in Isabella's will of 1855? I know the organ building business was in Swan St. I know JT was an organ builder and the witness to the will, J. Bunting was also an organ builder. Caroline Dobson was the wife or daughter of Benjamin Dobson the organ builder- partner of Munro in Dobson and Munro organ builders. She became a famous organ player.