Genealogy Chat

Olde Crone - could you post the title of your favourite murder book? Sounds just like my type of bedtime reading!! Merry

Merry - great minds think alike! (You just posted before me, that's all!) I went to the library and pored through my favourite murder book. Spookily, the only child murderer to come up with this surname was Beverley Allitt, the nurse who murdered (five?) children in her care. How spooky is that? I am almost tempted to do Beverley Allitt's family tree...... In the same book, I read: (;paraphrased) Child murder was easy in Victorian times. It was not necessary to register the death. The Law was widely misunderstood and many people, including members of the Clergy, thought that a Doctor's Certificate of Cause of Death was sufficient to effect a burial. Of the murders which WERE detected, this was rarely as the result of a Doctor's observations. By far and away the murders were detected by a vigilant UNDERTAKER who would take his suspicions to the Coroner. There was often a monetary reward for this, particularly where an Insurance benefit was due. My point here is that an Undertaker would not have been fooled by the cause of death being teething, if the child had obviously burnt to death! Of course, they may not have used an Undertaker, but even so... Could you not get in touch with the cousin of the cousin and ask him where this story comes from? If the old man never talked about his family, then who did? Personally, I think the fact of your mother going to prison for a year for wilful neglect leading to death, would be enough to make anyone clam up about their family, certainly in those days. Olde Crone

HI Angela The name of the child that was in the Times was Harriett and here is a birth that could be her Name: Allott, Harriet Record Type: Births Quarter: September Year: 1880 District: Bradford County: West Riding of Yorkshire Volume: 9b Page: 242 And then a death entry it would have been a laete entry as they would have been checks on the assumption of murder or manslaughter as it was stated Name: Allott, Harriet Record Type: Deaths Age at death: 0 Quarter: December Year: 1880 District: Bradford County: West Riding of Yorkshire Volume: 9b Page: 151 Your could try contacting Bradford Reg Office to see if parents were William nd Sarah once that marriage confirms that William was Arthurs dad. Wendy

How about this? Sarah Jane ''killed'' her child through neglect and was sentenced to a year's hard labour. Ordinary people are going to call this ''Murder'' even though this was not what she was conficted of. We are saying she killed five children (or rather, Arthur Allott's parent's killed five children) yet Arthur lived........ I think if it turns out Sarah Jane Allott is the ''murderess'' it's most likely she only had five children.........If everyone hated her, how much would it take to get from, ''That woman killed her child'' to ''That woman killed her children'' and with the knowledge that she had five children, ''that woman killed five children'', then get her hubby involved, ''those people murdered their five children''. I think the fact that Sarah Jane Allott came from the exact place you mentioned and did have a son called Arthur may mean this is the right family. BUT YOU NEED ARTHUR'S MARRIAGE CERT to begin the proof, or otherwise! Merry

Angela You can only say 'Evidently his parents were murderers' if you have some evidence! Lots of family stories get exaggerated. I know from my own family that often tales turn out to be about someone else's family altogether, or to have a slight foundation in truth. IF these people were convicted - or even tried - for murder there would be a record somewhere. If they were imprisoned in Armley gaol, the gaol registers - which should be in the local records office - would give the date they were imprisoned, the charge and the outcome of any trial. On the other hand, if this is just a case of - five of their children died and people suspected they were murdered, or died of neglect, then you won't find any evidence, as that is just gossip. The murderfiles website above was able to find details of my gt gt granduncle's trial for murder in 1862. You could also check Freebmd for Allott children who died young during the relevant period. nell

Right Angela, You said your grandfather was born June 1915 and his mother's maiden name was Langford. This must be his birth reg, that I posted earlier: Name: Allott Arthur Mother's maiden name: Langford Reg District: North Bierley Vol No. 9b Page 51 Birth Q1 1915 As you see, he must have been born before June as his birth was reg in Q1 (ie registered in either Jan, Feb or March). But I'm sure this is the one because of the mum's maiden name. Here is the marriage of Arthur senr to Naomi Langford. Marriages Dec 1909 >>>>ALLOTT Arthur N. Bierley 9b 414 COOPER Mary Ellen N. Bierley 9b 414 GRAYSHON Thomas N. Bierley 9b 414 >>>>LANGFORD Naomi N. Bierley 9b 414 YOU NEED TO GET A COPY OF THIS MARRIAGE CERT! The marriage cert will give you an approx age for Arthur and, more importantly, the name and occupation of his father. From this we should be able to determine if Arthur was the son of Sarah Jane and William, or not. Good Luck Should you need a copy of the newspaper articles about Sarah Jane, send me a personal message (click on my name) and let me know your email address. Merry

i'm really sorry but i gave the wrong year for the birth of my grandfather. This is everything i have Arthur Allott was born on 15/06/1915. he married Florence Harrison (born 25/06/1918) on 16/04/1938. I think both were born in Bradford, west yorkshire His father Arthur Allott was born c1880 (give or take) and he had a first wife who i know absolutely nothing about, but they did have a child called Emily and she was born c1905. His second wife Naomi Langford (born c1880) had 2 sisters, Annie and Florence. They had 12 children all together.. I have been told that Arthur came from Shipley, Bradford. It is his parents who are supposed to be the murderers and i was told they made the papers but which paper i don't know. I was also told that Naomi was a violent drunk (what a lovely family I have) and that driven to destraction by this Arthur senior attempted suicide and was arrested but i have no date for this but it does mean he'll have a criminal record too. not very helpful huh? this is why i'm so stuck

Merry Pretty sure you'd get more than a year's HL for murdering five of your children! Not that she was charged with murder, of course.And it couldn't have been hubby either, cos he is at home in 1891 as well. I will off to the library tomorrow, where they have lots of books about Victorian Murderers (!) and see what I can see. Olde Crone

Crone, Sarah Jane was sentenced to one year's hard labour. Can't see her on later censues, but haven't looked properly yet. (UPDATE - Just noticed Wendy has posted extremely possible 1891 census details, above) Merry

Just a thought - I'm pretty good at them. There is always the possibility that this story has been exaggerated down the years. This might be the right Sarah, in Leeds Gaol, charged with allowing her child to starve to death. There may or may not have been other children who died young, and family members or neighbours, were suspicious, with or without foundation. Anyone who wilfully murdered five children in the 1800s would absolutely and definitely have made the Headlines, and certainly have been hung. However, TWO people cannot be both charged with the same murder - if both man and wife appeared in Court and there was a big wrangle about which of them murdered which child - again, it would have made the headlines, and I would have thought, the Law Books, too. As for falsifying the cause of death - before 1875 it was not necessary for a death to be certificated by a Doctor, so why would they have bothered? I read a lot of true crime, particularly Victorian ones, and I really don't remember anything with anything like these details - most child murders where the mother was involved were poisonings, done for the Insurance money. Did the Sarah in Gaol die fairly soon? Might be an indication that she was hung. Would there be anything in Hansard? Olde Crone

Sorry, I forgot to give site address. www.murderfile.net

A really facinating site for anyone interested in MURDER and EXECUTIONS is the site Capital Punishment in the UK. This has details of every 20th century execution (sometimes with pictures of executed person). Also shows Prison site of execution and date. You can search free by year from 1900 onwards. Angela, it may not give the answer to your specific question but worth a try as it states a member can obtain info from 1868. Have a look yourself and see what you think. Ray Whincup

One step at a time..... Regarding your grandfather....... These are the only Arthur Allott birth reg's between 1915 and 1920 (inc) Surname Forename Mothers maiden name District Page No Event Quarter Year Allott Arthur Brunt Ashton Under Lyne.8d 797 Birth 4 1920 Allott Arthur Haigh Dewsbury.9b 1150 Birth 4 1919 Allott Arthur Langford North Bierley.9b 51 Birth 1 1915 From the dates or places, do you know which one is yours? If you don't (and you need to be SURE!!) then do you know when this Arthur Allott died??? Merry

Do you know who your G grandfather married? As we could use this to get his fathers name. Or if we can confirm the about Arthur b1883 is him this is the certificate details- which would give you both parents Name: ALLOTT, Arthur Record Type: Births Quarter: March Year: 1883 District: Bradford County: West Riding of Yorkshire Volume: 9b Page: 221 Zoe

Could this be your grt grandad based on above census info ARTHUR ALLOTT Male -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: 01 JAN 1883 Shipley, Yorkshire, England Christening: Death: 28 FEB 1973 Burial: Submitted record no parents Zoe

HI Angela this could be William and Sarah Jane's marriage as they are together on the 1871 census as husband and wife with the youngest son seen George Name: Allott, William Record Type: Marriages Quarter: March Year: 1869 District: Bradford County: West Riding of Yorkshire Volume: 9b Page: 232 Allott, William 1869 March Marriages Bradford West Riding of Yorkshire Linley, Sarah Jane 1869 March Marriages Bradford West Riding of Yorkshire In the 1871 censu they have been transcribed as Abbott. Wendy

HI ANGELA This could then be the family with the saem details for the Sarah was sen in Armley nick in the 1881 census Allott, Arthur abt 1884 Saltaire, Yorkshire, England Son Idle Yorkshire Allott, George abt 1872 Shepley, Yorkshire, England Son Idle Yorkshire Allott, Sarah J abt 1850 Shepley, Yorkshire, England Wife Idle Yorkshire Allott, William abt 1887 Shipley, Yorkshire, England Son Idle Yorkshire Allott, Wm abt 1850 Shepley, Yorkshire, England Head Idle Yorkshire Wendy

sarah jane sounds likely... it's shipley, bradford, west riding/yorkshire. but that only sounds like one person. i heard it was a couple who killed 5 children and there was a cousin (could have been either one's cousin so could be any name who was a doctor who lied on the death certificates) i'm just a little lost here my history straight back to this is... Angela Milner (me) born 1971.. mother Janice Allott (deceased) born 1946, grandfather Arthur Allott (deceased) born 1918 Married Florence Harrison . great grandfather Arthur Allot (who NEVER spoke about himself and i am so stuck here) born c1880ish give or take 20 years either way (ok i'm really stuck here)

Oh, the Sarah jane Allott who was in The Times was born in Shipley: 1881 census: Sarah Jane Allott abt 1851 Shipley Bradford, Yorkshire, England Prisoner 'Her Majestys Prison' Armley Nr Leeds, Armley, Yorkshire, England Merry

Shipley, Sussex, or West Riding? Merry