Genealogy Chat

i just found out from a cousin of a distant relative through another relative (how convoluted is that?!?!) the reason why my great grandfather (who was a brick wall for me) didn't talk about his family. Evidently his parents were murderers. My great great grand parents (whose names i don't know) murdered 5 of their children and one of my G.G. grand parents cousins was a doctor who falsified the medical records.... he said that one child died of teething when really that child burned to death. I believe they all ended up in Armley Goal in Leeds. I'm not certain that they were hanged but i would expect so. My great grand father was called Arthur Allott and I think this all happened about 1880 ish give or take 20 years either way. I don't know if he changed his name to 'hide his shame' as it were. Where do i go from here? I'm stuck

where might arthur allott have lived? what were all these children called, when were they born

I think it might have been in Shipley... but that isn't certain

I think you need to trace your tree back one step at a time so you can be certain of exactly who you are talking about............ Do you know more detailed dates of your grandparent - Arthur's son or daughter?? We need to find your Arthur on the census, but there are a lot to choose from. Anything you can say about Arthur's son or daughter....When and where they were born, might make all the difference. If you don't know that yet, then we wpould need to begin with your parent - Arthur's grandchild, but that might take a lot more working out! Are you saying that this crime was never discovered? Or that they were found out eventually? Maybe you don't know? I have looked in The Times newspaper archive - there was a Sarah Jane Allott who was imprisioned for inadequately feeding her child (the child died) - that was in 1880 somewhere neer Leeds. Merry

Shipley, Sussex, or West Riding? Merry

Oh, the Sarah jane Allott who was in The Times was born in Shipley: 1881 census: Sarah Jane Allott abt 1851 Shipley Bradford, Yorkshire, England Prisoner 'Her Majestys Prison' Armley Nr Leeds, Armley, Yorkshire, England Merry

sarah jane sounds likely... it's shipley, bradford, west riding/yorkshire. but that only sounds like one person. i heard it was a couple who killed 5 children and there was a cousin (could have been either one's cousin so could be any name who was a doctor who lied on the death certificates) i'm just a little lost here my history straight back to this is... Angela Milner (me) born 1971.. mother Janice Allott (deceased) born 1946, grandfather Arthur Allott (deceased) born 1918 Married Florence Harrison . great grandfather Arthur Allot (who NEVER spoke about himself and i am so stuck here) born c1880ish give or take 20 years either way (ok i'm really stuck here)

HI ANGELA This could then be the family with the saem details for the Sarah was sen in Armley nick in the 1881 census Allott, Arthur abt 1884 Saltaire, Yorkshire, England Son Idle Yorkshire Allott, George abt 1872 Shepley, Yorkshire, England Son Idle Yorkshire Allott, Sarah J abt 1850 Shepley, Yorkshire, England Wife Idle Yorkshire Allott, William abt 1887 Shipley, Yorkshire, England Son Idle Yorkshire Allott, Wm abt 1850 Shepley, Yorkshire, England Head Idle Yorkshire Wendy

HI Angela this could be William and Sarah Jane's marriage as they are together on the 1871 census as husband and wife with the youngest son seen George Name: Allott, William Record Type: Marriages Quarter: March Year: 1869 District: Bradford County: West Riding of Yorkshire Volume: 9b Page: 232 Allott, William 1869 March Marriages Bradford West Riding of Yorkshire Linley, Sarah Jane 1869 March Marriages Bradford West Riding of Yorkshire In the 1871 censu they have been transcribed as Abbott. Wendy

Could this be your grt grandad based on above census info ARTHUR ALLOTT Male -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: 01 JAN 1883 Shipley, Yorkshire, England Christening: Death: 28 FEB 1973 Burial: Submitted record no parents Zoe

Do you know who your G grandfather married? As we could use this to get his fathers name. Or if we can confirm the about Arthur b1883 is him this is the certificate details- which would give you both parents Name: ALLOTT, Arthur Record Type: Births Quarter: March Year: 1883 District: Bradford County: West Riding of Yorkshire Volume: 9b Page: 221 Zoe

One step at a time..... Regarding your grandfather....... These are the only Arthur Allott birth reg's between 1915 and 1920 (inc) Surname Forename Mothers maiden name District Page No Event Quarter Year Allott Arthur Brunt Ashton Under Lyne.8d 797 Birth 4 1920 Allott Arthur Haigh Dewsbury.9b 1150 Birth 4 1919 Allott Arthur Langford North Bierley.9b 51 Birth 1 1915 From the dates or places, do you know which one is yours? If you don't (and you need to be SURE!!) then do you know when this Arthur Allott died??? Merry

A really facinating site for anyone interested in MURDER and EXECUTIONS is the site Capital Punishment in the UK. This has details of every 20th century execution (sometimes with pictures of executed person). Also shows Prison site of execution and date. You can search free by year from 1900 onwards. Angela, it may not give the answer to your specific question but worth a try as it states a member can obtain info from 1868. Have a look yourself and see what you think. Ray Whincup

Sorry, I forgot to give site address. www.murderfile.net

Just a thought - I'm pretty good at them. There is always the possibility that this story has been exaggerated down the years. This might be the right Sarah, in Leeds Gaol, charged with allowing her child to starve to death. There may or may not have been other children who died young, and family members or neighbours, were suspicious, with or without foundation. Anyone who wilfully murdered five children in the 1800s would absolutely and definitely have made the Headlines, and certainly have been hung. However, TWO people cannot be both charged with the same murder - if both man and wife appeared in Court and there was a big wrangle about which of them murdered which child - again, it would have made the headlines, and I would have thought, the Law Books, too. As for falsifying the cause of death - before 1875 it was not necessary for a death to be certificated by a Doctor, so why would they have bothered? I read a lot of true crime, particularly Victorian ones, and I really don't remember anything with anything like these details - most child murders where the mother was involved were poisonings, done for the Insurance money. Did the Sarah in Gaol die fairly soon? Might be an indication that she was hung. Would there be anything in Hansard? Olde Crone

Crone, Sarah Jane was sentenced to one year's hard labour. Can't see her on later censues, but haven't looked properly yet. (UPDATE - Just noticed Wendy has posted extremely possible 1891 census details, above) Merry

Merry Pretty sure you'd get more than a year's HL for murdering five of your children! Not that she was charged with murder, of course.And it couldn't have been hubby either, cos he is at home in 1891 as well. I will off to the library tomorrow, where they have lots of books about Victorian Murderers (!) and see what I can see. Olde Crone

i'm really sorry but i gave the wrong year for the birth of my grandfather. This is everything i have Arthur Allott was born on 15/06/1915. he married Florence Harrison (born 25/06/1918) on 16/04/1938. I think both were born in Bradford, west yorkshire His father Arthur Allott was born c1880 (give or take) and he had a first wife who i know absolutely nothing about, but they did have a child called Emily and she was born c1905. His second wife Naomi Langford (born c1880) had 2 sisters, Annie and Florence. They had 12 children all together.. I have been told that Arthur came from Shipley, Bradford. It is his parents who are supposed to be the murderers and i was told they made the papers but which paper i don't know. I was also told that Naomi was a violent drunk (what a lovely family I have) and that driven to destraction by this Arthur senior attempted suicide and was arrested but i have no date for this but it does mean he'll have a criminal record too. not very helpful huh? this is why i'm so stuck

Right Angela, You said your grandfather was born June 1915 and his mother's maiden name was Langford. This must be his birth reg, that I posted earlier: Name: Allott Arthur Mother's maiden name: Langford Reg District: North Bierley Vol No. 9b Page 51 Birth Q1 1915 As you see, he must have been born before June as his birth was reg in Q1 (ie registered in either Jan, Feb or March). But I'm sure this is the one because of the mum's maiden name. Here is the marriage of Arthur senr to Naomi Langford. Marriages Dec 1909 >>>>ALLOTT Arthur N. Bierley 9b 414 COOPER Mary Ellen N. Bierley 9b 414 GRAYSHON Thomas N. Bierley 9b 414 >>>>LANGFORD Naomi N. Bierley 9b 414 YOU NEED TO GET A COPY OF THIS MARRIAGE CERT! The marriage cert will give you an approx age for Arthur and, more importantly, the name and occupation of his father. From this we should be able to determine if Arthur was the son of Sarah Jane and William, or not. Good Luck Should you need a copy of the newspaper articles about Sarah Jane, send me a personal message (click on my name) and let me know your email address. Merry

Angela You can only say 'Evidently his parents were murderers' if you have some evidence! Lots of family stories get exaggerated. I know from my own family that often tales turn out to be about someone else's family altogether, or to have a slight foundation in truth. IF these people were convicted - or even tried - for murder there would be a record somewhere. If they were imprisoned in Armley gaol, the gaol registers - which should be in the local records office - would give the date they were imprisoned, the charge and the outcome of any trial. On the other hand, if this is just a case of - five of their children died and people suspected they were murdered, or died of neglect, then you won't find any evidence, as that is just gossip. The murderfiles website above was able to find details of my gt gt granduncle's trial for murder in 1862. You could also check Freebmd for Allott children who died young during the relevant period. nell