Genealogy Chat

Hi
Im not sure how to go about this so any advice very gratefully received.

Im trying to find the Army records of my grandad WILLIAM JEFFRIES b17/08/1898 Manchester. I dont know his army number so would be grateful if anyone could tell me how to get it.

He served with the Manchester PALS and fought at the Battle of the Somme. Im afraid thats all that I know.

Many thanks
Cassie

As you may know about 70% of WW1 service records were unfortunately destroyed by fire in 1940.

Ancestry has those records that survived and there are about 30 William Jeffries records amongst them. Do you have his address at the time he would have enlisted? Did he have a second forename?

This is the only Manchester one I can see, but wrong birth year. Records are transcribed on Ancestry, but be aware 60-70% were destroyed during a bombing raid in WW2.

Name: William Jeffries
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Age at enlistment: 26
Document Year: 1915
Regimental Number: 23327
Regiment Name: Manchester Regiment
Number of images: 3

hello
Thanks ever so much for the replies.
Ive now found another possible birth which would fit the 1899 birth above.

As far as Im aware he didnt have a second name.
What I do know is he would have lived in Manchester when he enlisted as he lived there all his life but Im afraid I dont have an address.

Not much to go on Im afraid. I have 2 possible births 1898 and 1899 both same name in Manchester. I know he married an Elizabeth Thornley in 1921 M/cr but dont suppose that helps.

He was in the M/cr regiment. Do I have to pay for the army records or is there any way I can check I have the right one before doing so? Im trying to ascertain when he died as that may lead me to the correct dob?

many thanks
Cassie :-)

Re Ancestry - Please could you tell me what is available on the site re Army Records? Is it worth me paying subs for this ie would it tell me much or would you advise I request details from Army Records Office?

many thanks
Cassie :-)

I think if the record exists it will be on Ancestry. Note the problem as stated above that most records no longer exist.
The only other way as far as I know is to go in person to National Archives at Kew.
Regarding a sub, it isn't worth it for odd bits of info as those of us with subs will look for you. If you wish to research extensively yourself it might be worth it.

It will help with finding out other info if you get his marriage cert, so you can get his father's name.

Hang onto this in case it turns out to be him:


1911 England Census about William Jeffries
Name: William Jeffries
Age in 1911: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: North Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 18 George St Miles Platting
Occupation: School
Registration district: Prestwich
Registration District Number: 467
Sub-registration district: Newton Heath

Amelia Jeffries 31
William Jeffries 12
Daniel Jeffries 10
Harold Jeffries 7
Ellena Jeffries 3
Mary Ellen Clancy

Have you tried a google search for 'Manchester Pals'?
Jan

Also possible, same family as above:

1901 England Census

Name: Wm Jeffries
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1898
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Wm Jeffries
Mother's Name: Amelia Jeffries
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: North Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: Newton Heath St Mark
County/Island: Lancashire

Registration district: Prestwich
Sub-registration district: Newton

Wm Jeffries 25
Amelia Jeffries 23
Wm Jeffries 3
Daniel Jeffries 5 Months

Hi Brummiejan

Thanks for all the info!!. I think I will order a marriage certificate so at least I know if Im following the right one. Its typical that there are 2 Wm Jeffries 1898 and 1899 both born Manchester. If I can ascertain his death it may have a dob on it so that may be an option too.

I did google Manchester Pals but unfortunatley their blog site isnt working and wont let me Register. Im hoping this is a temporary blip as Im sure they may hold the key.

Once again thanks for all your help.

best wishes
cassie

:-D :-D :-D

from familysearch marriages William's father was also a William

married 26 March 1921 at St Phillips Manchester

Thanks Ann

Would you believe there were 2 William Jeffries born close by around the same time and now I see Both had fathers called William! ha ha!

One was born Salford, one Manchester but I think Im going with the Manchester one. Maybe if I find the deaths it may help. The marriage youve given above is definatley the right one.

Looks like the above info re the army record may be right.

Thanks everyone very much appreciated

Cassie ;-)

Marriages Mar 1921 (>99%)
JEFFRIES William Thornley Manchester 8d 408

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1921
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
JEFFRIES William THORNLEY Elizabeth Manchester, St. Philip Manchester 93/10/287


name: William Jeffries
event: Marriage
event date: 26 Mar 1921
event place: St Philip, Manchester, Lancashire, England
marital status: Single
father: William Jeffries
spouse: Elizabeth Thornley
spouse's marital status: Single
spouse's father: James Thornley
film number: 2357637
digital folder number: 004497845
image number: 00843

Citing this Record
"England, Lancashire, Cheshire, Yorkshire, Parish Registers, 1603-1910," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FM1Y-XFP : accessed 14 Sep 2012), William Jeffries and Elizabeth Thornley, 1921.

=========================================

So this must be the Salford one

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
County:Lancashire
Parish:SALFORD
Street:59 LORD NELSON STREET
Ecclesiastical District:SALFORD CHRISTCHURCH
Municipal Ward:ST PAUL
Parliamentary Borough:WEST SALFORD
Registration District:SALFORD
Sub District:REGENT ROAD
Enumeration District:19
Archive Reference:RG13 Piece Number:3734 Folio:43 Page:4

WILLIAM JEFFRIES 1871 30 Manchester, Lancashire HEAD M ENGINEERS LABOURER
ELIZABETH A JEFFRIES 1873 28 Manchester, Lancashire WIFE M
ARTHUR JEFFRIES 1895 6 Salford, Lancashire SON
WILLIAM JEFFRIES 1898 3 Salford, Lancashire SON
CHARLES JEFFRIES 1870 31 Manchester, Lancashire BOARDER S PAINTER (HOUSE)


1911 England Census
Civil parish: Pendleton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 27 Herd Street Of High Street Pendleton
Registration district: Salford
Registration District Number: 465
Sub-registration district: Regent Road [4]
ED, institution, or vessel: 37
Piece: 24080 [Sched # 72]

William Jeffries 40 Manchester, Lancashire HEAD M ENGINEERS LABOURER
Elizabeth Ann Jeffries 38 Manchester, Lancashire WIFE M
Wiliam Jeffries 13 Salford, Lancashire SON SCHOOL
Arthur Jeffries 11 Salford, Lancashire SON SCHOOL
James Jeffries 9 Salford, Lancashire SON SCHOOL
[Marr 14y; 4 live births; 3 still living]

Marriages Dec 1896 (>99%)
Jeffries William Salford 8d 109

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1896
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
JEFFRIES William MASSEY Elizabeth A Salford St Bartholomew Salford C43/9/327

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
Marriage: 26 Dec 1896 St Bartholomew, Salford, Lancs.
William Jeffries - 25 Labourer Bachelor of 8 Trafford Rd.
Elizabeth Ann Massey - 24 Braid Tenter Spinster of 4 Eldon Street
Groom's Father: William Jeffries, Carrier
Bride's Father: William Massey, Carter
Witness: C. Jeffries; Mary Jones
Married by Banns by: G. W. Petherick
Register: Marriages 1894 - 1897, Page 164, Entry 327
Source: LDS Film 1786464

1901 England Census
County:Lancashire
Parish:NORTH MANCHESTER
Street:8 RAVENGLASS STREET
Ecclesiastical District:NEWTON HEATH ST MARK
Municipal Ward:MILES PLATTING
Parliamentary Borough:NORTH EAST MANCHESTER
Registration District:PRESTWICH
Sub District:NEWTON
Enumeration District:25
Archive Reference:RG13 Piece Number:3760 Folio:171 Page:32

WM JEFFRIES 1876 25 NK HEAD M HAWKER OF VEGETABLES
AMELIA JEFFRIES 1878 23 Manchester, Lancashire WIFE M
WM JEFFRIES 1898 3 Manchester, Lancashire SON
DANIEL JEFFRIES 1901 0 Manchester, Lancashire SON


Marriages Jun 1896 (>99%)
Jeffries William Manchester 8d 491

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1896
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
JEFFRIES William HUGHES Amelia Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Manchester MCR_RM/136/121


1911 England Census
Civil parish: North Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 18 George St Miles Platting
Registration district: Prestwich
Registration District Number: 467
Sub-registration district: Newton Heath
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Piece: 24255 [Sched # 106]

Amelia Jeffries 31 Manchester, Lancashire Head M [Seperated crossed out] Cotton Mule Piecer
William Jeffries 12 Manchester, Lancashire Son School
Daniel Jeffries 10 Manchester, Lancashire Son School
Harold Jeffries 7 Manchester, Lancashire Son
Ellena Jeffries 3 Manchester, Lancashire Daughter
Mary Ellen Clancy 22 Manchester, Lancashire Boarder S Paper Presser
[Marr 14y; 5 live births; 4 still living]


Births Mar 1898 (>99%)
Jeffries William Salford 8d 156

Births Sep 1898 (>99%)
Jeffries William Manchester 8d 235

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1898
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
JEFFRIES William Salford Regent Road Salford RR/234/16
JEFFRIES William Ancoats Manchester ANC/245/1



17/8/1898 matches Manchester, but how sure of that date are you?

Wow thanks everyone for all this info.

Im going to order a death certificate for a William Ive found in 1978 which I believe is the right one. I got the DOB from that record.

Im hoping to speak to Williams son today but unfortunately he is very very ill and it is for him that Im doing this as it is something hes always wanted to do but never got round to it. Hopefully he will be able to tell me the date or year of death of his father then I'll know if I have the right dob.

I now have the forms ready to fill in to the MOD to request copy of any Army Service Record but need the dob and they request a death certificate as well.

fingers crossed Ill have an answer today if his son is up to it. After this Ill be passing on the rest of the info too so thanks to you all!

TTFN
Cassie :-D

Cas,

Tameside Archives have the Manchester City Battalions book which lists everyone who enlisted in the service or "Pals" Battalions after 1915.

I would imagine that if William Jeffries was born c1898 then he would have probably enlisted after 1915 if so he should be amongst those listed in the book.

Amongst the Medal index cards there are 2 William Jeffries who served with the Manchester Regiment:

Name: William Jeffries
Regiment or Corps: Manchester Regiment, 12/Manchester Regiment
Regimental Number: 4833, 4833

Name: William E Jeffries
Regiment or Corps: Manchester Regiment
Regimental Number: 30389

Good luck.

Thanks Jonesey for the info.
We now think he WAS born 1898 (due to checking his death date)so would that mean he could possibly be too young to have joined in 1915 as I was given another Wm Jeffries yesturday

Name: William Jeffries
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Age at enlistment: 26
Document Year: 1915
Regimental Number: 23327
Regiment Name: Manchester Regiment
Number of images: 3

Crickey I didnt realise the name was so popular! ha ha!

Regards
Cassie :-S

The Age limit for the British army was 19 as the start of WW1. Initially only men between the ages of 19 and 38, at least 5 foot 6 inches tall with chest measurements of at least 34 inches were accepted. Many rejected in the first wave of enlistments were later accepted when standards were revised.

Technically your William would not legally have been able to enlist until 1915 but many young men (Boys) lied about their age in order to enlist. It is thought that as many of 250,000 ‘Boy Soldiers’ were recruited and fought in World War One. On the first day of the Battle of the Somme in 1916, 500 ‘Boy Soldiers’ were killed and 2,000 wounded. By the time the battle had ended, 18,000 ‘Boy Soldiers’ had been killed or wounded.

Hi Jonesey

Thanks for the info.
Ive just been told he fought at the Battle of the Somme and was shot through the foot apparently the family joke was always he stopped a bullet by putting his foot in the air!

His son is very ill but believes he is the Wm who died in 1978 which means he was born 17/08/1898 so I think Im going to try to order his army records using that dob. They say use dob AND/OR service number. I may leave off the service number and add his next of kin details (parents) which may help?

I do know my other grandad also b1898 lied about his age saying he was older and joined up in WW1 then lied again in the WW2 saying he was younger.I managed to get his army records for both wars but I did have his Service number so it was easier.

Thanks for all the info!
Cassie

You can't order his records unless he served after 1921. If his service ended before then they would be on the Ancestry website, if they have survived.

You can check Army Records for WW1 and 2 here

http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/records.asp?SE=go&KW=british_army_military_records&cmp=B&AdGp=N2&gclid=CNP5ptbJuLICFY5TfAodKnAATg

:-)