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David
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14 May 2012 22:56 |
I've discovered two entries which seem nearly identical, I'm not sure which one is my great great grandmother or if I can ever find out.
Census data for her family home puts her birth in 1881, however birth records show two Florence Orchard's Vol1A P418.
One in 1879 page 383 Jul/Aug/Sept - Florence Orchard Vol1A P418 One in 1880 page 384 Jul/Aug/Sept - Florence Edith Orchard Vol1A P418
Both identical place of birth St George Hanover Square.
She married William Dunn in 1918 but no extra info and the early family census data makes no mention of Edith as a second name. Only in 1901 and 1911 census has Edith as a second name and the age is correct.
I am quite new to this, trying to find her was interesting as my Grandfather was illegitimate and took his step fathers name of Dunn when his mother married. Luckily we had a couple of photos of two graves with the name Orchard and a note that this was his mothers family.
Hope someone can help sort this out or explain it.
Thanks for looking.
David.
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GlitterBaby
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14 May 2012 23:11 |
1881 for one of them
Name: Florence Orchard Age: 1 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880 Relation: Daughter Father's Name: Thomas Orchard Mother's Name: Hannah Orchard Gender: Female Where born: Pimlico, Middlesex, England Civil parish: St George Hannover Square County/Island: London Country: England Street Address: 31 Effingham St Education:
Employment status: View image Registration district: St George Hanover Square Sub-registration district: Belgrave ED, institution, or vessel: 39a Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 105 Folio: 49 Page Number: 1 Household Members: Name Age Thomas Orchard 26 Hannah Orchard 30 George W. Orchard 4 Florence Orchard 1 Sarah Dewey 63 Ancestry seem to suggest this one married a Frost
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brummiejan
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14 May 2012 23:18 |
There might just be two:
1891 England Census
Name: Florence Orchard Age: 11 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880 Relation: Daughter Father's Name: Thomas Orchard Gender: Female Where born: Pimlico, London, England Civil parish: St George Hanover Square Ecclesiastical parish: St Gabriel Fenchurch Town: London County/Island: London
Registration district: St George Hanover Square Sub-registration district: Belgrave
Thomas Orchard 46 George Orchard 14 Florence Orchard 11
1891 England Census
Name: Florence Orchard Age: 10 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881 Relation: Daughter Father's Name: Charles Orchard Mother's Name: Emily Orchard Gender: Female Where born: St Georges, London, England Civil parish: St John the Evangalist Westminster Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthews County/Island: London Registration district: St George Hanover Square Sub-registration district: St John Westminster
Charles Orchard 32 Emily Orchard 32 Florence Orchard 10 Annie Orchard 8 Amy Orchard 6 Ethel Orchard 4 Charles Orchard 2 Stephen Orchard 3 Months
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ErikaH
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14 May 2012 23:18 |
Her father's name will be on her marriage cert - unless, of course, she also was illegitimate
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GlitterBaby
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14 May 2012 23:19 |
1901 and 1911 have a Florence Edith Orchard as a servant
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ErikaH
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14 May 2012 23:21 |
Only ONE forename on her marriage record
Name: Florence Orchard Spouse Surname: Dunn Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1918 Registration district: Wandsworth Inferred County: Surrey Volume Number: 1d Page Number: 904 Find Spouse: Find Spouse
When and where did she die?
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brummiejan
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14 May 2012 23:24 |
There are several possibilities for her birth - why have you decided the St George's ones are correct? Jan
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David
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15 May 2012 12:07 |
Hi, thanks for all the responses, you guys are quick off the mark.
I have been given two photographs of graves. Both my grandfathers relatives.
One was of Emily Louisa Orchard died 1937 aged 82, on the same stone is the name Charles who was killed in action. A geranium obscures part of the stone but we believe it is in Bournemouth.
My mother has said she recognises my grandfathers writing on this picture, he has written "my mum". However she would have been 59 at his birth if she really was 82! I think this is actually his Grandmother and the writing could easily be his mothers or he himself could've be a bit confused and no one has bothered until now to figure the age problem.
The second stone is Stephen Guy Orchard died 30/12/1946 age 55
From this I've been through a lot of the names listed by you kind people above and discovered a family called Orchard with a mother called Emily Louisa (b1854) and father called Charles (b1859) with children including Stephen Guy (b1891).
The eldest sister of the family is called Florence (b 1881) and I managed to find a birth record of my Grandfather , Gerald R Orchard (b1914), with his mothers maiden name of Orchard as he was illegitimate. He took his step fathers name of Dunn when his mother met and married his step father.
So, I know his likely grandmother and she has a number of daughters, process of elimination looking for a marriage between an Orchard and a Dunn. I find one in 1818 between Florence and William Dunn. The age match the Florence of the eldest daughter of Emily Louisa Orchard family.
Does that all make sense?
I did some more digging in the Census records charting the family and this is where I've come up against which Florence is it?
Certainly having looked at all the records it is clear birth years aren't always accurate, especially in the census when husband and wife have matching years. I always treat that as suspicious.
I do have more but I hope you guys can confirm that it is 99% certain the matches I have found are the likely ancestors of my family.
Thanks for reading :-)
David.
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MaureeninNY
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15 May 2012 12:58 |
Just for info: CWGC ORCHARD, CHARLES RICHARD
Rank: Private Service No: 62801 Date of Death: 04/10/1917 Age: 28 Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 143rd Coy. Grave Reference VI. B. 29. Cemetery DOCHY FARM NEW BRITISH CEMETERY Additional Information: Son of Emily L. Orchard, of 185, Sutton Buildings, Chelsea, London, and the late Charles R. Orchard.
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MaureeninNY
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15 May 2012 13:32 |
London, England, Electoral Registers, 1847-1965 Record for Florence Edith Dunn Wandsworth > Battersea > 1938
135a Queens Rd Dunn Florence Edith Dunn William Dunn Gerald Ryan
Maureen
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David
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15 May 2012 13:41 |
I'm welling up here, that's amazing. Thank you all so much. How do you find that so quickly!
Since I posted this I've had a reply from my Grandad's half brother via his daughter. He has been trying to trace this side of the family for many years and in his 90's had almost given up.
Probably never know who my grandfathers biological father was but you never know.
Thank you all again.
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MaureeninNY
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15 May 2012 13:56 |
Oh,how nice,David!
Good luck with your research.
Maureen :-)
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Alisoun
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18 May 2012 23:35 |
That,s really good to hear I,m looking for my grandma,s half-brother but he.d be over 100 but i,m holding out hope of descendents for my mum to have some living half cousins .with this fantastic team to help
Charlotte nee Roberts born 1881 married after 1901 seeking her husbands name + their son ps how did you get that who you,re searching icon to come on bottom of page
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+++DetEcTive+++
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19 May 2012 00:31 |
Alisoun, you have to go into 'my account'. You have to input your password again at that point.
Which reminds me, do you think we are over the 'late frosts'? :-D
As for your 'seeking' sentence. Have you started a thread of your own? Much better to do that than tack it on to someone elses research.
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Alisoun
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19 May 2012 00:44 |
yes i,m doing threads one for grandma,s birth parents and one for her adopted family response is amazingly rapid but I,ve got them stumped at some levels. I,ll try adding the names into my account ps I wouldn,t predict any weather in GB
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LadyKira
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19 May 2012 20:52 |
David I have spent some time working on your data today.
I will post in 2 sets as it is long. Some you will already have but it helped me follow the family. It is arranged in date order.
1851 census Address: 41, Bird Street, Lambeth DODGON, Benjamin Head Married M 27 1824 Journeyman Pawnbroker Newington Surrey DODGON, Mary Wife Married F 29 1822 St Clements Middlesex
Births Sep 1854 Dodgon Emily Louisa Newington 1d 213
Be careful on Ancestry as there are two Emily Dodgons. One is Emily Jane and was born in Shoreditch and the other is Emily Louisa daughter of Benjamin and Mary. Some trees have them muddled.
London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Emily Louisa Dodgon Name: Emily Louisa Dodgon Record Type: Baptism Estimated Birth Date: abt 1857 Baptism Date: 14 Jan 1857 Father's Name: Benjamin Dodgon Mother's Name: Mary Dodgon Parish or Poor Law Union: Newington Holy Trinity Borough: Southwark Register Type: Parish Registers
1871 census DODGON, Benjamin Address: College Street, St John DODGON, Benjamin Head M 46 1825 Surrey DODGON, Mary Wife F 46 1825 Middlesex DODGON, Susanna Maria Daughter F 10 1861 Middlesex DODGON, Martha Clara Daughter F 7 1864 Surrey
1861 census Address: ..., Trinity Street, St Peter, Dorchester ORCHARD, James Richd Head Married M 25 1836 ... Clerk ... Dorset ORCHARD, Fanny Wife Married F 25 1836 Dorchester Dorset ORCHARD, Charles R Son M 2 1859 Dorchester Dorset ORCHARD, Florence M Daughter F 1 1860 Dorchester Dorset DICKER, Elizabeth Servant F 11 1850 House Servant Dorchester Dorset
1871 census Person: ORCHARD, James Address: Princes Street, The Holy Trinity, Dorchester ORCHARD, James Head M 34 1837 Dorset ORCHARD, Fanny Wife F 35 1836 Dorset ORCHARD, Charles Son M 12 1859 Dorset ORCHARD, Florence Daughter F 10 1861 Dorset ORCHARD, Annie Daughter F 8 1863 Dorset ORCHARD, Alice Daughter F 7 1864 Dorset ORCHARD, James Son M 0 1871 Dorset
Births Sep 1880 ORCHARD Florence Edith St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 418
Marriages Jun 1880 Dodgon Emily St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 567 Orchard Charles Richard St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 567
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LadyKira
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19 May 2012 20:52 |
1881 census Address: 14, Ebury Sq, St George Hanover Square ORCHARD, Charles Head Married M 22 1859 Domestic Servant Dorchester Dorset ORCHARD, Emily Wife Married F 24 1857 Walworth Surrey ORCHARD, Florence Daughter Single F 0 1881 Chelsea Middlesex (8 months)
Births Sep 1884 Orchard Amy Elizabeth C St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 466
Births Sep 1886 Orchard Ethel Rhoda A St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 471
Births Dec 1888 ORCHARD Charles Richard St Geo. H. Sq. 1a 472
Births Mar 1891 (>99%) Orchard Stephen Guy St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 487
1891 census Address: 11, G Peabody Buildings, Orchard Street, Westminster ORCHARD, Charles Head Married M 32 1859 Club Waiter Dorchester Dorsetshire ORCHARD, Emily Wife Married F 32 1859 Walworth London ORCHARD, Florence Daughter F 10 1881 St George'sLondon ORCHARD, Annie Daughter F 8 1883 Westminster London ORCHARD, Amy Daughter F 6 1885 Westminster London ORCHARD, Ethel Daughter F 4 1887 Westminster London ORCHARD, Charles Son M 2 1889 Westminster London ORCHARD, Stephen Son M 0 (3M) 1891 Westminster London
1901 census Address: 13, Peabody Buildings E Block, St George Hanover Square ORCHARD, Charles R Head Married M 42 1859 Club Waiter Dorchester Dorsetshire ORCHARD, Emily Wife Married F 42 1859 Newington London ORCHARD, Annie A Daughter Single F 18 1883 Mantle Maker Incandescent Westminster London ORCHARD, Ethel R A Daughter Single F 14 1887 Mantle Maker Light C Westminster London ORCHARD, Charles R Son M 12 1889 Westminster London ORCHARD, Alfred E Son M 8 1893 Chelsea London ORCHARD, Doris Daughter F 5 1896 Pimlico London ORCHARD, James R Son M 3 1898 Marylebone London
London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about James Ronald Valentine Orchard Name: James Ronald Valentine Orchard Record Type: Baptism Estimated Birth Date: abt 1898 Baptism Date: 17 Feb 1898 Father's Name: Charles Orchard Mother's Name: Emily Louisa Orchard Parish or Poor Law Union: St Mark, Marylebone Road Borough: Westminster Register Type: Parish Registers Peabody buildings father is a waiter
1901 census Address: 79, Warwick Square, St George Hanover Square ORCHARD, Florence Edith Servant Single F 20 1881 Cook Domestic St Geo Han SQ London
1911 census 15 Peabody Buildings Grosvenor Road S W ORCHARD, Emily Head Widow F 53 1858 ORCHARD, Annie Daughter Single F 28 1883 London Westminster ORCHARD, Edward Son Single M 18 1893 Messenger London Chelsea ORCHARD, Doris Daughter Single F 15 1896 London Westminster ORCHARD, Ronald Son M 13 1898 School London Marylebone
1911 census Address: 13 St James Square ORCHARD, Ethel Servant Single F 24 1887 Housemaid Club Wesminster S W
1911 census Address: Athernaun Club 107 Pall Mall ORCHARD, Florence Edith Servant Single F 30 1881 Still Room Maid Club London Pimlico
1911 census Address: Naval Military Club 94 Piccadilly London ORCHARD, Stephen Ling Id Single M 20 1891 Assistant Waiter West Minister Ldn (Looking at original I think it says Guy. All the entries ae in the same hand and occupation follows father's)
UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919 about Ronald Orchard Name: Ronald Orchard Birth Place: Chelsea Residence: Chelsea, Middx. Death Date: 20 Sep 1917 Death Location: France & Flanders Enlistment Location: Charing Cross, Middx. Rank: Rifleman Regiment: Rifle Brigade (The Prince Consort's Own) Battalion: 10th Battalion Number: P/790 Type of Casualty: Killed in action Theatre of War: Western European Theatre
ORCHARD, RONALD Rank: Rifleman Service No: P/790 Date of Death: 20/09/1917 Age:19 Regiment/Service: Rifle Brigade10th Bn. Panel Reference Panel 145 to 147. Memorial TYNE COT MEMORIAL Additional Information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. C. R. Orchard, of 85, River View Grove, Chiswick, London.
CWGC ORCHARD, CHARLES RICHARD Rank: Private Service No: 62801 Date of Death: 04/10/1917 Age:28 Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 143rd Coy. Grave Reference VI. B. 29. Cemetery DOCHY FARM NEW BRITISH CEMETERY Additional Information: Son of Emily L. Orchard, of 185, Sutton Buildings, Chelsea, London, and the late Charles R. Orchard.
Marriages Mar 1918 Dunn William Orchard Wandsworth 1d 904 Orchard Florence Dunn Wandsworth 1d 904
London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Doris May Orchard Name: Doris May Orchard Age: 22 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896 Spouse Name: Ernest Gilbert Hunter Spouse Age: 27 Record Type: Marriage Event Date: 2 Nov 1918 Parish: Fulham All Saints Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham Father Name: Charles Richard Orchard Spouse Father Name: Henry George Hunter Register Type: Parish Register
London, England, Electoral Registers, 1847-1965 Record for Florence Edith Dunn Wandsworth > Battersea > 1938 135a Queens Rd Dunn Florence Edith Dunn William Dunn Gerald Ryan
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David
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21 May 2012 09:29 |
wow, amazing thank you all sso very much.
You are right on the Stephen Ling Orchard being Guy, just mistranscribed I guess but it did teach me to look at the original and not trust the transscript all the time.
Thank you again, simple query about two names turned into all this. :-D
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David
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30 Jun 2012 08:55 |
Once again thank you all for your help, trying to find some time to do some more research as my mum has sent me a couple of documents her brother had.
You know I said it was unlikely to find Gerald Ryan Orchard/Dunn's father as he was illegitimate. Well on one of the certificates relating to Education Act 1921 the fathers name has been filled out by Edith Orchard/Dunn.
It is listed as Charles Ryan, occupation, Waiter.
All the other documents have no mention of a father, this one is dated 1928, 10 years after she married William Dunn.
According to Geralds step brother his father didn't treat Gerald well, he never knew why and has only just found out that Gerald was his illegitimate. I wonder if after 10 years of marriage and mistreatment his mother wanted to rebel a little and finally wrote down his real fathers name, or William the step father insisted. Who knows.
I would love to find a candidate or two for Charles Ryan, the theory is he died in the war and it's a very likely one.
I'll keep looking and any pointers are greatly appreciated.
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+++DetEcTive+++
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30 Jun 2012 09:22 |
From CWGC - there are a number of candidates
RYAN, C
Rank: Driver Service No 675751 Date of Death: 26/10/1917 Regiment/Service: Royal Field Artillery "C" Bty. 285th Bde. Grave Reference V. B. 14. Cemetery BARD COTTAGE CEMETERY
******
RYAN, CHARLES
Rank: Sapper Service No: 158818 Date of Death: 18/03/1920 Age: 29 Regiment/Service: Royal Engineers Grave Reference In South-West angle of Church. Cemetery COCKING CHURCHYARD Additional Information: Son of Charles and Eleanor Kate Ryan, of Manor Cottage, Cocking.
********** RYAN, CHARLES
Rank: Private Service No:412632 Date of Death: 16/07/1916 Regiment/Service: ALIAS Grave Reference Cemetery RAILWAY DUGOUTS BURIAL GROUND Additional Information: See "THOMPSON" the true family name.
******* RYAN, CHARLES EDWARD
Rank: Private Service No: 6805 Date of Death: 30/10/1914 Age: 25 Regiment/Service: 20th Hussars Panel Reference Panel 5. Memorial YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL Additional Information: Son of John and Annie Ryan, of 4, Brookhouse St., Wigan.
******* RYAN, CHARLES M. J.
Rank: Lieutenant Date of Death: 04/10/1918 Age: 24 Regiment/Service: Royal Munster Fusiliers 3rd Bn. Awards: M C Grave ReferenceI. H. 48. CemeteryTEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY Additional Information: Son of Clement J. and Lily Ryan, of Emly House, Emly, Knocklong, Co. Limerick.
******
As you are probably aware, a large percentage of WW1 records were destroyed by bombing during WW2. Its going to be pot-luck if the records for 'your' Charles Ryan survived
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