Genealogy Chat

There is a Charles Payne waiter on the same entry 1911 - I wonder! But no way of telling is there. And the entry is very clear so not likely is it.
Jan

Hi, thanks for the help,

Yes, absolutely confirmed Florence Edith Orchard, we have a picture of the grave with her brothers grave next to it.

1911 Census has her here.

Athernaun Club 107 Pall Mall
Parish St James Westminster
Town Pall Mall
Type of Building Club
Number of Rooms X
Inhabited Y
Reference RG14PN505 RG78PN17 RD6 SD1 ED11 SN51
Administrative County London
Registration District Westminster
Registration Sub District St James and St Anne
Enumeration District 11

Householder 24
Name Florence Edith Orchard
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Condition / Years Married / Years
Gender F
Age 30
Estimated Year of Birth 1881
Occupation Still Room Maid Club
Employed Y
Working at Home N
Place of Birth London Pimlico

I'm sure I also found reference to a Charles Ryan from close to her families address in previous census which might have been an interesting tie up, if you visit your family you might become acquainted with someone that way. She was single in 1911 at the age of 30, I think I am right in thinking that seems positively ancient in early 1900's. Maybe she did have a fling with an 18 year old! :-0

How do you check Electoral Roles? Still a novice at this but it seems another possible source. A 1913 Charles Ryan in London would be a good starting point.

I have had a look at 1911 census for a Charles Ryan, waiter, but nothing stands out.
Can I just re-cap? There is a lot of info above, so indulge me! Have we pinned down Florence in 1911? As Reggie pointed out there is no middle initial on her marriage record, so id Florence Edith unlikely to be her?? I am just thinking if we can confirm where the she was 1911 it might help with a search for Charles. A long shot, particularly as 3 years before her son was born, but worth a try.
Jan

Wow thanks for that, CWGC? Commonwealth War Graves Commission?

I didn't realise that about the records being destroyed, haven't got that far.

I was trying to dig around the name and occupation in London. I figured Florence must have known Charles Ryan around 1912-13 as Gerald was born in 1914. They both worked in similar professions, she was a servant in a Club in Westminster in 1911 and he's listed as a waiter.
There is a Club Waiter called Charles Ryan in 1911 around the right area but he is only 16, she would be 30. Not impossible but unlikely. ;-)

From CWGC - there are a number of candidates

RYAN, C

Rank: Driver
Service No 675751
Date of Death: 26/10/1917
Regiment/Service: Royal Field Artillery
"C" Bty. 285th Bde.
Grave Reference V. B. 14.
Cemetery BARD COTTAGE CEMETERY

******

RYAN, CHARLES

Rank: Sapper
Service No: 158818
Date of Death: 18/03/1920
Age: 29
Regiment/Service: Royal Engineers
Grave Reference In South-West angle of Church.
Cemetery COCKING CHURCHYARD
Additional Information:
Son of Charles and Eleanor Kate Ryan, of Manor Cottage, Cocking.

**********
RYAN, CHARLES

Rank: Private
Service No:412632
Date of Death: 16/07/1916
Regiment/Service:
ALIAS
Grave Reference
Cemetery RAILWAY DUGOUTS BURIAL GROUND
Additional Information:
See "THOMPSON" the true family name.

*******
RYAN, CHARLES EDWARD

Rank: Private
Service No: 6805
Date of Death: 30/10/1914
Age: 25
Regiment/Service: 20th Hussars
Panel Reference Panel 5.
Memorial YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
Son of John and Annie Ryan, of 4, Brookhouse St., Wigan.

*******
RYAN, CHARLES M. J.

Rank: Lieutenant
Date of Death: 04/10/1918
Age: 24
Regiment/Service: Royal Munster Fusiliers 3rd Bn.
Awards: M C
Grave ReferenceI. H. 48.
CemeteryTEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Clement J. and Lily Ryan, of Emly House, Emly, Knocklong, Co. Limerick.

******

As you are probably aware, a large percentage of WW1 records were destroyed by bombing during WW2. Its going to be pot-luck if the records for 'your' Charles Ryan survived

Once again thank you all for your help, trying to find some time to do some more research as my mum has sent me a couple of documents her brother had.

You know I said it was unlikely to find Gerald Ryan Orchard/Dunn's father as he was illegitimate. Well on one of the certificates relating to Education Act 1921 the fathers name has been filled out by Edith Orchard/Dunn.

It is listed as Charles Ryan, occupation, Waiter.

All the other documents have no mention of a father, this one is dated 1928, 10 years after she married William Dunn.

According to Geralds step brother his father didn't treat Gerald well, he never knew why and has only just found out that Gerald was his illegitimate. I wonder if after 10 years of marriage and mistreatment his mother wanted to rebel a little and finally wrote down his real fathers name, or William the step father insisted. Who knows.

I would love to find a candidate or two for Charles Ryan, the theory is he died in the war and it's a very likely one.

I'll keep looking and any pointers are greatly appreciated.

wow, amazing thank you all sso very much.

You are right on the Stephen Ling Orchard being Guy, just mistranscribed I guess but it did teach me to look at the original and not trust the transscript all the time.

Thank you again, simple query about two names turned into all this. :-D

1881 census
Address: 14, Ebury Sq, St George Hanover Square
ORCHARD, Charles Head Married M 22 1859 Domestic Servant Dorchester Dorset
ORCHARD, Emily Wife Married F 24 1857 Walworth Surrey
ORCHARD, Florence Daughter Single F 0 1881 Chelsea Middlesex (8 months)

Births Sep 1884
Orchard Amy Elizabeth C St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 466

Births Sep 1886
Orchard Ethel Rhoda A St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 471

Births Dec 1888
ORCHARD Charles Richard St Geo. H. Sq. 1a 472

Births Mar 1891 (>99%)
Orchard Stephen Guy St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 487

1891 census
Address: 11, G Peabody Buildings, Orchard Street, Westminster
ORCHARD, Charles Head Married M 32 1859 Club Waiter Dorchester Dorsetshire
ORCHARD, Emily Wife Married F 32 1859 Walworth London
ORCHARD, Florence Daughter F 10 1881 St George'sLondon
ORCHARD, Annie Daughter F 8 1883 Westminster London
ORCHARD, Amy Daughter F 6 1885 Westminster London
ORCHARD, Ethel Daughter F 4 1887 Westminster London
ORCHARD, Charles Son M 2 1889 Westminster London
ORCHARD, Stephen Son M 0 (3M) 1891 Westminster London

1901 census Address: 13, Peabody Buildings E Block, St George Hanover Square
ORCHARD, Charles R Head Married M 42 1859 Club Waiter Dorchester Dorsetshire
ORCHARD, Emily Wife Married F 42 1859 Newington London
ORCHARD, Annie A Daughter Single F 18 1883 Mantle Maker Incandescent Westminster London
ORCHARD, Ethel R A Daughter Single F 14 1887 Mantle Maker Light C Westminster London
ORCHARD, Charles R Son M 12 1889 Westminster London
ORCHARD, Alfred E Son M 8 1893 Chelsea London
ORCHARD, Doris Daughter F 5 1896 Pimlico London
ORCHARD, James R Son M 3 1898 Marylebone London

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about James Ronald Valentine Orchard
Name: James Ronald Valentine Orchard
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1898
Baptism Date: 17 Feb 1898
Father's Name: Charles Orchard
Mother's Name: Emily Louisa Orchard
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Mark, Marylebone Road
Borough: Westminster
Register Type: Parish Registers
Peabody buildings
father is a waiter

1901 census
Address: 79, Warwick Square, St George Hanover Square
ORCHARD, Florence Edith Servant Single F 20 1881 Cook Domestic
St Geo Han SQ
London

1911 census 15 Peabody Buildings Grosvenor Road S W
ORCHARD, Emily Head Widow F 53 1858
ORCHARD, Annie Daughter Single F 28 1883 London Westminster
ORCHARD, Edward Son Single M 18 1893 Messenger London Chelsea
ORCHARD, Doris Daughter Single F 15 1896 London Westminster
ORCHARD, Ronald Son M 13 1898 School London Marylebone

1911 census
Address: 13 St James Square
ORCHARD, Ethel Servant Single F 24 1887 Housemaid Club Wesminster S W

1911 census
Address: Athernaun Club 107 Pall Mall
ORCHARD, Florence Edith Servant Single F 30 1881 Still Room Maid Club London Pimlico


1911 census
Address: Naval Military Club 94 Piccadilly London
ORCHARD, Stephen Ling Id Single M 20 1891 Assistant Waiter West Minister Ldn
(Looking at original I think it says Guy. All the entries ae in the same hand and occupation follows father's)


UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919 about Ronald Orchard
Name: Ronald Orchard
Birth Place: Chelsea
Residence: Chelsea, Middx.
Death Date: 20 Sep 1917
Death Location: France & Flanders
Enlistment Location: Charing Cross, Middx.
Rank: Rifleman
Regiment: Rifle Brigade (The Prince Consort's Own)
Battalion: 10th Battalion
Number: P/790
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

ORCHARD, RONALD
Rank: Rifleman
Service No: P/790
Date of Death: 20/09/1917
Age:19
Regiment/Service:
Rifle Brigade10th Bn.
Panel Reference
Panel 145 to 147.
Memorial TYNE COT MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
Son of Mr. and Mrs. C. R. Orchard, of 85, River View Grove, Chiswick, London.

CWGC
ORCHARD, CHARLES RICHARD
Rank: Private
Service No: 62801
Date of Death: 04/10/1917
Age:28
Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)
143rd Coy.
Grave Reference
VI. B. 29.
Cemetery
DOCHY FARM NEW BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Emily L. Orchard, of 185, Sutton Buildings, Chelsea, London, and the late Charles R. Orchard.


Marriages Mar 1918
Dunn William Orchard Wandsworth 1d 904
Orchard Florence Dunn Wandsworth 1d 904

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Doris May Orchard
Name: Doris May Orchard
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896
Spouse Name: Ernest Gilbert Hunter
Spouse Age: 27
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 2 Nov 1918
Parish: Fulham All Saints
Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham
Father Name: Charles Richard Orchard
Spouse Father Name: Henry George Hunter
Register Type: Parish Register


London, England, Electoral Registers, 1847-1965 Record for Florence Edith Dunn
Wandsworth > Battersea > 1938
135a Queens Rd
Dunn Florence Edith
Dunn William
Dunn Gerald Ryan

David I have spent some time working on your data today.

I will post in 2 sets as it is long. Some you will already have but it helped me follow the family. It is arranged in date order.

1851 census Address: 41, Bird Street, Lambeth
DODGON, Benjamin Head Married M 27 1824 Journeyman Pawnbroker
Newington
Surrey
DODGON, Mary Wife Married F 29 1822
St Clements
Middlesex

Births Sep 1854
Dodgon Emily Louisa Newington 1d 213

Be careful on Ancestry as there are two Emily Dodgons. One is Emily Jane and was born in Shoreditch and the other is Emily Louisa daughter of Benjamin and Mary. Some trees have them muddled.

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Emily Louisa Dodgon
Name: Emily Louisa Dodgon
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1857
Baptism Date: 14 Jan 1857
Father's Name: Benjamin Dodgon
Mother's Name: Mary Dodgon
Parish or Poor Law Union: Newington Holy Trinity
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

1871 census DODGON, Benjamin Address: College Street, St John
DODGON, Benjamin Head M 46 1825 Surrey
DODGON, Mary Wife F 46 1825 Middlesex
DODGON, Susanna Maria Daughter F 10 1861 Middlesex
DODGON, Martha Clara Daughter F 7 1864 Surrey


1861 census Address: ..., Trinity Street, St Peter, Dorchester
ORCHARD, James Richd Head Married M 25 1836 ... Clerk
...
Dorset
ORCHARD, Fanny Wife Married F 25 1836
Dorchester
Dorset
ORCHARD, Charles R Son M 2 1859
Dorchester
Dorset
ORCHARD, Florence M Daughter F 1 1860
Dorchester
Dorset
DICKER, Elizabeth Servant F 11 1850 House Servant
Dorchester
Dorset

1871 census
Person: ORCHARD, James Address: Princes Street, The Holy Trinity, Dorchester
ORCHARD, James Head M 34 1837 Dorset
ORCHARD, Fanny Wife F 35 1836 Dorset
ORCHARD, Charles Son M 12 1859 Dorset
ORCHARD, Florence Daughter F 10 1861 Dorset
ORCHARD, Annie Daughter F 8 1863 Dorset
ORCHARD, Alice Daughter F 7 1864 Dorset
ORCHARD, James Son M 0 1871 Dorset

Births Sep 1880
ORCHARD Florence Edith St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 418

Marriages Jun 1880
Dodgon Emily St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 567
Orchard Charles Richard St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 567

yes i,m doing threads one for grandma,s birth parents and one for her adopted family response is amazingly rapid but I,ve got them stumped at some levels.
I,ll try adding the names into my account
ps I wouldn,t predict any weather in GB

Alisoun, you have to go into 'my account'. You have to input your password again at that point.

Which reminds me, do you think we are over the 'late frosts'? :-D

As for your 'seeking' sentence. Have you started a thread of your own? Much better to do that than tack it on to someone elses research.

That,s really good to hear I,m looking for my grandma,s half-brother but he.d be over 100 but i,m holding out hope of descendents for my mum to have some living half cousins .with this fantastic team to help

Charlotte nee Roberts born 1881 married after 1901 seeking her husbands name + their son
ps how did you get that who you,re searching icon to come on bottom of page

Oh,how nice,David!

Good luck with your research.

Maureen :-)

I'm welling up here, that's amazing. Thank you all so much. How do you find that so quickly!

Since I posted this I've had a reply from my Grandad's half brother via his daughter. He has been trying to trace this side of the family for many years and in his 90's had almost given up.

Probably never know who my grandfathers biological father was but you never know.

Thank you all again.

London, England, Electoral Registers, 1847-1965 Record for Florence Edith Dunn
Wandsworth > Battersea > 1938

135a Queens Rd
Dunn Florence Edith
Dunn William
Dunn Gerald Ryan

Maureen

Just for info:
CWGC
ORCHARD, CHARLES RICHARD

Rank:
Private
Service No:
62801
Date of Death:
04/10/1917
Age:
28
Regiment/Service:
Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)

143rd Coy.
Grave Reference
VI. B. 29.
Cemetery
DOCHY FARM NEW BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Emily L. Orchard, of 185, Sutton Buildings, Chelsea, London, and the late Charles R. Orchard.

Hi, thanks for all the responses, you guys are quick off the mark.

I have been given two photographs of graves. Both my grandfathers relatives.

One was of Emily Louisa Orchard died 1937 aged 82, on the same stone is the name Charles who was killed in action. A geranium obscures part of the stone but we believe it is in Bournemouth.

My mother has said she recognises my grandfathers writing on this picture, he has written "my mum". However she would have been 59 at his birth if she really was 82! I think this is actually his Grandmother and the writing could easily be his mothers or he himself could've be a bit confused and no one has bothered until now to figure the age problem.

The second stone is Stephen Guy Orchard died 30/12/1946 age 55

From this I've been through a lot of the names listed by you kind people above and discovered a family called Orchard with a mother called Emily Louisa (b1854) and father called Charles (b1859) with children including Stephen Guy (b1891).

The eldest sister of the family is called Florence (b 1881) and I managed to find a birth record of my Grandfather , Gerald R Orchard (b1914), with his mothers maiden name of Orchard as he was illegitimate. He took his step fathers name of Dunn when his mother met and married his step father.

So, I know his likely grandmother and she has a number of daughters, process of elimination looking for a marriage between an Orchard and a Dunn. I find one in 1818 between Florence and William Dunn. The age match the Florence of the eldest daughter of Emily Louisa Orchard family.

Does that all make sense?

I did some more digging in the Census records charting the family and this is where I've come up against which Florence is it?

Certainly having looked at all the records it is clear birth years aren't always accurate, especially in the census when husband and wife have matching years. I always treat that as suspicious.

I do have more but I hope you guys can confirm that it is 99% certain the matches I have found are the likely ancestors of my family.

Thanks for reading :-)

David.

There are several possibilities for her birth - why have you decided the St George's ones are correct?
Jan

Only ONE forename on her marriage record

Name: Florence Orchard
Spouse Surname: Dunn
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1918
Registration district: Wandsworth
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 904
Find Spouse: Find Spouse

When and where did she die?

1901 and 1911 have a Florence Edith Orchard as a servant