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There are two william J wing's one in 1864 the other in 1866 so I would think it is the 1866 one that we are tying to find

jax

oh oops I think I was looking at the 1865 Marylebone birth when I said it was easy to find at freebmd but yes there is also the 1866 one and then yes I guess the one I was tracing was the one born in Shoreditch ...


Births Jun 1864
WING William James Shoreditch 1c 103
Births Mar 1865
Wing William James Marylebone 1a 559
Births Dec 1866
Wing William J Marylebone 1a 546

so he is the wrong one

here is the right one

Name: William James Wing
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1867
Baptism Date: 6 Oct 1867
Father's name: Francis Wing
Mother's name: Faney Wing
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Marylebone St Mark
Borough: Westminster

baptised late it seems

for good measure this looks like Frank' s baptism ?

Name: William Francis Wing
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1861
Baptism Date: 24 Nov 1861
Father's name: Francis William Wing
Mother's name: Sarah Wing
Parish or Poor Law Union: Southwark St Saviour
Borough: Southwark

Have you looked at what I had already found on page one ? Would'nt the 1861 be too early?

oops sorry did'nt notice Frank (must go to specsavers)

jax

Ummm they would'nt baptise two living children with the name William surely?

Unless it was a mistake by the vicar?

jax

well .......... I don't see another birth for a Francis or Frank Wing around 1861ish ..........

if that is Frank he went by his middle name, maybe William James did too?


do we know why Frances / Fanny is called Sarah in 1861 ??


Marriages Jun 1859 ??
Dentor Eliza E Grinstead 2b 168
Isted Frances E Grinstead 2b 168
Longley George E. Grinstead 2b 168
Wing Francis E Grinstead 2B 168

Births Mar 1838 ??
ISTED Sarah Uckfield 7 454


I am going off on a wide tangent :-)


1851

Name: Thomas Tsted
[Frances Isted] >>>> two people have added the same 'alternate info' at Ancestry
[Frances Isted]
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: William Tsted
Mother's name: Sarah Tsted
Where born: East Grinstead, Sussex, England

Civil parish: East Grinstead
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England

Registration district: East Grinstead

Household Members:
Name Age
William Tsted 44
Sarah Tsted 43
Thomas Tsted 13
Charles Tsted 8
Harriette Tsted 4
Sarah Tsted 2
Eliza Tsted 1 MO

Sandra also said there was a daughter called Frances but her birth reg said her name was Anne which she now has a copy of and I believe I found her death when she was 15 which Sandra is now going to purchase....why did they keep swapping names

Why Frances was called Sarah...no idea maybe it was her middle name or was told it was??

jax

eeeeek !

the 1861 census says

Frances Wing 21
Sarah Wing 24
Frank Wing 1 <<
Robert Isard 20
William Holmes 51
Alexander Stevenson 47
Jane Stevenson 14
George Stevenson 10



this must be the one who married Sarah andrews in 1852 in the 1851 census


Name: Francis William Wing
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Son
Father's name: Francis William Wing
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Blk Juars St Anns

Civil parish: Southwark St Saviour
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: St Saviour

Household Members:
Name Age
Francis William Wing 53
Sarah Wing 48
Francis William Wing 21
John Charles Wing 16
Joseph Henry Wing 11
William Francis Wing 16 MO <<
Lousia Wing 18
Sarah Ann Wing 14
Hannah Elizbeth Ring 7

he is a painter


so not that William Francis Wing baptism :-)

I removed the marriage because I realised they could not have married when they were 12 but I agree the baptism looks more likely to be that couple.

Francis/Frank born 1860/1 was also born in E.Sussex so his baptism was more than likely to be there I would have thought


jax

I'll throw this in...

I have access at my local library to

Parish registers
East Grinstead 1662-1872 West Hoathly 1645-1878 and Worth 1558-1880 (covering Crawley Down and Turners Hill areas).

If anyone thinks lookups would be helpful I can do them on Tuesday.

I am going offline now but will be back later this evening.

Chris

I am sure Sandra will take you up on that offer if she has not already got them.

I lived in Crawley up until 18 months ago but unfortunatly do not have any ancestors from there

jax

I am overwhelmed with all this information. Thanks for all the feedback!

I do think as well that the 1914 Francis Wing death details are the same as the one for 1902, which appears to be the genuine one. I believe this Francis Wing is not the F W I am looking for. . Having ended up in an asylum could be one option, but indeed a sad one. Will have to have a think about that one.

Just to give a bit of background information first. The Wings were indeed originally haybinders from East Grinstead, most of them liviing in West Hoathly. The oldest Wing I knew was William Wing from Horsted Keynes b 1783acc to census records, although his birth remains elusive, just can't find him (was he a son of Francis Wing & Mary Isted?). His son was William Wing b 1816 in Street, Sussex and this William & Harriet (nee Holmes) were the parents of Francis Wing b Nov 1839. This Francis married Frances (known as Fanny) Isted (b 1837, W Hoathly) in May 1859 in East Grinstead. Frank was born on 2 April 1860 in W Hoathly. On the birth cert father Francis is said to be a farm labourer.

Anne was born in 1862 by which time they all live in East Grinstead (only up the road from W Hoathly). Occupation of father: groom. Perhaps they had fallen on hard times and Francis had had to look for another job.

Although I haven't got the birth cert., the William James Wing b 1867 appears to be the correct one. On 1871 census the birth place says 'Hamsted', but your info mentions Marylebone.

In March 1870 their 1 yr old son Arther died age 1 yr old, funnily enough in West Street, East Grinstead (perhaps they took him back to family in E Grinstead). In Jan 1871 Walter Edward was born in Clerkenwell to die later that year of whooping cough age 7 months, but back in Marylebone. In 1878 it seems that Anne died age 15. If Francis ended up in a lunatic asylum I wouldn't be that surprised, so much misery to cope with. Frances (Fanny) carried on working as a servant in Knightsbridge until her death in 1904.

Another possibility: perhaps the marriage broke down, they didn't have the money for a divorce and Francis simply disappeared and possibly changed his name so that he would be untraceable. His son Frank (the one born 1860 and my ggfather) I reckon did the same as by 1911 he is listed as having deserted his wife. He was a commercial traveller by trade. Even an experienced genealogist hasn't been able to trace him. Did he take after his dad? He must have changed his name. :-\

I think the only way to be sure is to get that 1902 death certificate, it might say something that would help to identify him, like maybe former occupation ........ but it might not say anything helpful at all

probably the informant would be someone from the institution and not his wife even if it were the right Francis.

Is it son Frank who is your direct ancestor ? do you have any theories about him saying that his father was a painter decorator when he married ? ( if I am remembering that right from a previous page ) edit, oops florist decorator

that just seems a little particular and unrelated :-)

our messages crossed

ah, an experienced genealogist has failed ... that is a challenge that can' t be passed up !


have these deaths been ruled out ?

Francis H Wing abt 1859 Oct-Nov-Dec 1926 Epping Essex
Frank Wing abt 1859 Jan-Feb-Mar 1916 Rotherham Yorkshire West Riding

rule out Francis Henry Wing birth Mar 1858 St Luke

and rule out Frank Wing birth Dec 1858 Rotherham

just checking :-)

trying to match up someone on an outgoing passenger list

WING Frank 1870 M 1912 London Australia Sydney

if he maybe lied about his age ?

these births

Births Dec 1870
Wing Frank Pancras 1b 143
Births Mar 1872
Wing Frank Maidstone 2a 628

seem to match up with these deaths

Frank Wing abt 1871 Jan-Feb-Mar 1943 Surrey Mid Eastern ( born 1870 ) Surrey
Frank Wing abt 1872 Oct-Nov-Dec 1918 Grimsby Lincolnshire ( born 1872 )

but ages at death are often not exact so that Grimsby one could be the Frank born 1874 in Bourn .........


of course the Frank Wing who travelled to Australia could have returned ..... but ....

3317/1913
WING FRANK
( father's name ) 42 YRS NEWTOWN
( mother's name )
district NEWTOWN NSW

that makes that one born abt 1870 and he was not born in NSW


so the one who went to Australia died there

Sorry for the delay but haven't had much time to access pc this weekend. Thanks Chrissiex for the info and the several suggestions. It is like looking for a needle in a haystack to try and find Frank. I forgot to write that my mother remembers only once overhearing family members that Frank had gone to the States. That of course is only a rumour.

Re his father Francis Wing I think I will take up the advice and order the 1902 death certificate to see if it will give any further information. Still waiting for birth cert Walter Wing and death cert Anne Wing. Will keep you posted.

Chrissie in Sussex, if you are still going to your local library on Tuesday, if the records are there, I would dearly like to find out who William Wing's parents were. William was the grandfather of Francis Wing and was born in Horsted Keynes around 1782/83 according to census records. Have been able to find several other Wing births around that time, but no William. Another mystery... Perhaps he was adopted or born out of wedlock, I don't know.

Have to go, will come back later.

Sandra

Sandra

Sorry but the library doesn't have registers for Horstead Keynes.

If you need any lookups for the following areas and time frames then I am happy to do them.

East Grinstead 1662-1872 West Hoathly 1645-1878 and Worth 1558-1880 (covering Crawley Down and Turners Hill areas)

Chris

Ok, would it be possible to check around 1782/3 birth records of East Grinstead and West Hoathly to see if there is any trace of William, you never know? I am pretty sure when I checked before I couldn't find him in the H Keynes registers.

Thank you.
Sandra :-)