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Hi Ginny

Thanks for all the information, I think I'll have to sleep on it as it's almost my bedtime. Not too sure what I'll do, but I've got a lot to be going on with.

Thanks again for putting yourself out for me.

Joy :-)

Hi Dea

Thanks once again for all your useful information, especially the 1911 Census. I didn't have that. But there isn't a Walter born to James and Mary, it's actually Walton. Obviously "N" was taken for an "R".
I've got so much to think about now, but I think that maybe Mary Vevers will stay a mystery. And I'm too tired to think anymore at the moment as its nearly 10.30pm.

Thanks ever so much for your help Dea. I really appreciate it.

Joy :-)

Dea

I see what you are saying but if the Mary Jane Lee was brought up with her grandparents and it was a 'secret' then she would have been listed on the census as Vevers

Just looked on the 1911 census for a Mary Jane Lee and there isnt one!

Theres no death listed for a Mary Jane Lee either...I think that is evidence enough

Ginny,

I'm sure I found a Mary Lee who fitted on 1911 - I will go and have another look.

Dea x

Edit:
No- you are right Ginny - I found a Mary but her birth was registered in Morpeth and the Mary Jane I saw was born c 1903.
Both of these births appear on Bmd as well as the one you found !

Dea x

Just a litle thought on the matter .the census asks how many children born to the marriage but if she was born pre marriage then maybe they thought she shouldnt be included The Vevers do say they had one child still living from their marriage which would be James as shown on the 1901 census

Thanks Shirley, but I am not sure as, if they completed the form correctly, James was not from 'their' marriage but from Williams previous marriage to Bridget!

All a little 'strange' ??

Dea x

Dea Dea...

Now you as an experinced researcher know that you cant trust census records...

....what about the one a while ago that had his occupation as an international play boy ;)

We cant be sure of who Mary Jane Lee's mother was until we have a cert, but she's sure not around on the 1911 and Mary Vevers is...who wasnt born according to records!

I'll bet you a blackjack to a fruit salad its the same person!

x

I suspect you may well be right Ginny !

Dea x

Hi, Shirley, Ginny and Dea,

Gosh you ladies have been very busy whilst I was in my bed.
Having read all your Posts I really think I will have to get the Cert. for Mary Jane Lee, as it seems that that will be the only way to prove it one way or another.

Between the 3 of you you have certainly widened my perspective and thought of things that I certainly would not have thought of, so thank you all most heartily once again.

As soon as the office opens for Certificates on Monday night, (my time) I shall be ringing them and hopefully in 3 weeks time I shall have solved the mystery!

Thanks once again, you're all STARS...

Cheers.

Joy :-)

Joy,

Monday's a holiday in the UK.

Rose

Hi Rose

Thanks ever so much for letting me know that the "Certs Office" will be closed on Monday, saved me a few 'pennies'. I shall pencil in the phone call for Tuesday now. Ah well, I don't suppose that one more day will make a big difference...

Thanks again.

Joy :-)

Hi Joy

You can order online and pay by credit card if you like

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

Please come back to us when the certificate arrives, I think we are just as eager as you to find out!

Fingers crossed

x

Hi Ginny,
Thanks for that address, saves me having to wait until after 8pm on Tuesday over here before I can ring...
I most certainly let you all know the outcome, but I was looking at William's family with his first wife, Bridget and I see he already has a daughter named Mary E Vevers. I'm hoping she was maybe Mary "Elizabeth" and went by the name of either Betty or Elizabeth and this one I'm checking on will be Mary Ethel, so will go by the name of Ethel, as my Grandmother did?
I'm hoping for a favourable outcome and keeping everything crossed, but I'm still not too sure. We can only wait and see.

Thanks once again for letting me know about ordering online.

Cheers.

Joy :-)

New message from Joy:

KiwiJoy Today at 06:26 Request review
I'm now back from my holiday in Sydney and the Cert. has arrived and I thought you may be interested in what it said - after all the help you gave me. Unfortunately it is bad news:- it is for a Mary Janet b. 30 Dec. 1901, Father Samuel Lee, Mother Annie Lee, formerly McDonald, living at 13 Ivy Street, Newcastle. I've checked all of my Grandmothers siblings to see if maybe there was a Samuel Lee, but there wasn't, so I don't know where to go from here.

It looks like you may have to pay up on your bet with Dea, Ginny. What was it - something about a Blackjack to a Fruit Salad? :-)

Anyway ladies thank you all so very much for your help. That now makes 2 brick walls I have to break down - one of these days...

Cheers
Joy :-)

Dea x

I suspect this is why we couldn't find that Mary Lee on 1911 - I think she must be one of the 'daughters'
referred to below? Was Samuel a Gas Stoker' on the birth cert?

LEE, Samuel Head Married 11 years M 38 1873 Gas Stoker In Ireland Co Antrim Resident
LEE Wife F 38 1873 In Ireland Co Antrim Resident
LEE Daughter F 10 1901 School Newcastle upon Tyne
LEE Daughter F 9 1902 School Newcastle upon Tyne

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
30585 Reference:
RG14PN30585 RG78PN1753 RD558 SD3 ED7 SN87

Registration District:
Newcastle upon Tyne Sub District:
Elswick Enumeration District:
7 Parish:
Elswick

Address:
15 Gloucester Street and 89 Sycamone St Newcastle upon Tyne County:
Northumberland

Married 11 years - 4 children (2 living + 2 died).

I will go and find my notes on this and start again. !!

Dea x

Dea

Thanks for the update.

I now owe you one Black Jack....I was wrong and you were right.

But hey thats what this business is all about, looking, guessing and buying certificates to be proved wrong grrrrr

Back to the drawing board then, but not back to giving up...the answer is out there somewhere

x

Hi Ginny,

Well - it was a strong possibility and you could just as easily have been proved right. Shame though, for Joy's sake that it wasn't correct.

Anyway, we will just have to start again from the beginning won't we?

We will get there in the end.

Dea x

P.S. - I would prefer the fruit salad sweetie please - the Blackjacks make your lips and teeth all 'purply' !!

Dea x

A little off track but Joy was looking for the death of Bridget....

Who is Sarah? Tempted think it's Bridget but there is a big gap between Toward and Richard.

1891 England Census
about Richard Nevres
Name: Richard Nevres
Age: 5/12
Estimated birth year: abt 1890
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Wm
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Newcastle Upon Tyne

Civil parish: Westgate
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England
Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub-registration district: Westgate
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Wm Nevres 40
Sarah Nevres 39
Mary Nevres 19
Mgt Ann Nevres 16
John Nevres 14
William Nevres 12
Toward Nevres 9
Richard Nevres 5/12


Then there's this death:

Deaths Dec 1892
Vevers Sarah 41 Newcastle T. 10b 54a

Rose

Well spotted Rose - it's certainly them.

I will go and investigate.

Dea x

Following on from what Rose posted - I have been looking for a marriage to a 'Sarah' but couldn't find one.

These are the marriages for William which we have already:

Marriages:

Marriages Jun 1871
McCue Jane Carlisle 10b 771
***TARPEY Bridget Carlisle 10b 771
***VEVERS William Carlisle 10b 771
Waterson William Carlisle 10b 771


Marriages Sep 1896
Cook Elizabeth Newcastle T. 10b 61
Dodds Luke Newcastle T 10b 61
***LITTLE Margaret Newcastle T. 10b 61
***Vevrs William Newcastle T. 10b 61
/////////
I had a little look for Bridget Tarpey and found it quite difficult but I did come up with this:

There may be no connection but it is very interesting... ???

1861 England Census
about Bridget Tarpey
Name: Bridget Tarpey
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Catherine
Gender: Female
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England

Civil parish: St Mary Within
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England

Street Address:........... Veavers Court *****


Registration district: Carlisle
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 83
Household Members: Name Age
Catherine Tarpey 30
Ann Tarpey 16
Bridget Tarpey 12
Catherine Tarpey 9
Elizabeth Tarpey 7
Ellenor Tarpey 3

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 3918; Folio: 11; Page: 14; GSU roll: 543206

*****Veavers Court - head Jane VEVERS - mar ?? 60 Proprietor of Houses - b Carlisle, Cumberland. !!!
................

Jane Vevers died Carlisle 1882.agerd 81 !!!
//////////////////////////

Bridget Kirpin
[Bridget Tarpey]
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England

Civil parish: English Street
Ecclesiastical parish: St Cuthbert
Town: Carlisle
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England


Registration district: Carlisle
Sub-registration district: Wetheral
ED, institution, or vessel: 9d
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 36
Household Members: Name Age
James Higgins 43
Ann Higgins 21
Smith Kirpin 43 Lodger. Labr. b Ireland
Cathrine Kirpin 21 wife b. Ireland
Ann Kirpin 7
Bridget Kirpin 1


Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2429; Folio: 537; Page: 8; GSU roll: 87109.

It doesn't really get us anywhere with Mary but I thought I would post it so that people could 'explore'

Dea x