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But how do you know that his parents are James and Emily?

I still "insist" you need that marriage cert in case the witnesses help us to determine the correct James and family. I can see no other possible means of moving on. Of course, they may not give us any help at all. But I can't see anything else that will.

He may well have lived at Waterfall Farm as the father of your grandfather, but that doesn't mean he lived there as a child.

Are you saying the marriage cert of your grandfather gives the address of his own father? Most unusual.

Only trying to get to the truth.

Margaret

Madmeg, just added some info which may help, sorry I should have gotten my folder out sooner.
I really do appreciate all your help and yes it does state Williams address as Waterfall Farm but I reasoned that my grandfather was living there too and that's how it came to be on the cert

This is James and Harriett's Marriage same area,just 2 years in between.


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1861 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Booth James Leek 6b 263
Clulow Matilda Leek 6b 263
HANCOCK Harriet Leek 6b 263
Simcock James Leek 6b 263

You see, you set off saying his parents were James and Emily, so two people found that family with no William. Then three people found a family with a William, father James. And at least one of the first pair, David, and probably the other one, Sue, is now having second thoughts. Fair enough. That is what this board does - explores possibilities. So now four out of five of us, and possibly all five, are leaning towards James and Harriet.

EDIT, now all of us are on that train of thought. Can't be ignored.

You must get that marriage certificate. Sorry to be pushy. Perhaps I was last time I tried to help? Was I right then? Ouch!!!

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about William Simcock
Name: William Simcock
Year of Registration: 1889
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Stoke Upon Trent
County: Staffordshire
Volume: 6b
Page: 225 (click to see others on page)

Spouse Ellen Bailey

Madmeg is right. It's the only way you can know for sure.

lol no I don't think your pushy at all and you certainly were not the last time you helped, I am so pleased that you all are so willing to help me and I don't consider your questions/questioning whether I have it right in the first place out of place, if you get my gist.
I do have Williams marriage cert he was married to Ellen Bailey on the 9th June 1889, he was 23 and she 20.
His profession is collier, residence at time of marriage is Stanley Moor, Ellen's is Milton, Baddeley Edge.
Williams father is Jame's Simcock profession collier.
Witnesses Alfred (looks like) Harvey and Hannah Bailey Ellen's sister.
Hope this helps

1881 England Census
about James Simcock
Name: James Simcock
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Harriett
Gender: Male
Where born: Horton, Staffordshire, England

Civil parish: Stoke Upon Trent
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Street Address: Stanley Moor
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Farmer 23 Acres Coal Miner

Registration district: Stoke Upon Trent
Sub-registration district: Hanley
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
James Simcock 45 Farmer 23 acres, coal miner
Harriett Simcock 44
Enoch Simcock 17
William Simcock 14
Jesse Simcock 9
Simeon Simcock 6
Joyce Rose Simcock 2
Harriett Simcock



1891 England Census
about James Simcock
Name: James Simcock
Age: 57
Estimated birth year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Harriet
Gender: Male
Where born: Horton, Staffordshire, England

Civil parish: Wolstanton
Ecclesiastical parish: Newchapel St James
Town: Thursfield
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Wolstanton
Sub-registration district: Tunstall
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
James Simcock 57 Farmer
Harriet Simcock 54
William Simcock 24 MARRIED
Simeon Simcock 16
Joyce R Simcock 12
Harriet Simcock 10
Alfred Salt 16

Which might explain why your g father lived on a farm.

Where is William's wife, Ellen?

Pauline.we will leave all the info as it is laid out for now and when you get the cert for Williams 's birth to show who his mother was then you can give me a pm.

I have bookmarked this thread to come back to.

David,
By the way I thought it was James's year of birth(1821) that was out as if you look at the 1881 census image you couldn't expect a woman of 57 like you think it says to have a baby of 7 months old.It is definitely 37 for Emily Simcock

Oh "beep" you had the marriage cert all the time.

The witnesses don't help. But still nothing to suggest his mother was Emily, and if you see my previous post re 1881 and 1891 you will see that "father" James became a joint farmer-coal miner, and then a farmer.

So where does this Waterfall Farm come from Pauline?

Cos the farm he was on in 1891 is called Turnhurst Hall.

Note, William was married, but no wife living there.

So we now need Ellen living alone nearby.

No, I'm not finding Ellen Simcock without a husband in 1891.

Pauline, did she have any children by then?

Well: I think this is the same William we've been tracking-
1891 Ancestry
Name: William Simcock
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Harriet
Gender: Male
Where born: Horton, Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Wolstanton
Ecclesiastical parish: Newchapel St James
Town: Thursfield
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Wolstanton
Sub-registration district: Tunstall
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
James Simcock 57
Harriet Simcock 54
William Simcock 24-he's married now
Simeon Simcock 16
Joyce R Simcock 12
Harriet Simcock 10
Alfred Salt 16
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2157; Folio 59; Page 3; GSU roll: 6097267.

So where is Ellen and I think a son-John William born 1890?

Maureen

Edit-Sorry,Meg! That'll teach me to try to eat while posting!!

Sorry Meg don't blame you for beeping lol, Waterfall Farm my Uncle John, one of Williams sons, remembers this and of William and Ellen living there and its also on the military death cert of one of his other sons, John William.

Ellen had her first child, John William in 1889, J.W fought in the first world war and sadly died on his birthday December 30th 1917

1891 Ancestry
Name: John W Symcock
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1890
Relation: Grandson
Mother's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Baddaley Green, Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Norton in The Moors
Ecclesiastical parish: St Phillip and St James
Town: Milton
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Street Address:
Registration district: Leek
Sub-registration district: Norton
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Bailey 43
Pheobe Bailey 40
Hannah E Bailey 20
Annie Bailey 13
Mary A Bailey 11
Ellen Bailey 22
John W Symcock 1
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2184; Folio 119; Page 44; GSU roll: 6097294.

Maureen

Oh, here she is:

1891 England Census
about John W Symcock
Name: John W Symcock
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1890
Relation: Grandson
Mother's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Baddaley Green, Staffordshire, England

Civil parish: Norton in The Moors
Ecclesiastical parish: St Phillip and St James
Town: Milton
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Leek
Sub-registration district: Norton
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Samuel Bailey 43
Pheobe Bailey 40
Hannah E Bailey 20
Annie Bailey 13
Mary A Bailey 11
Ellen Bailey 22 (Original says Symcock, married, daughter, visitor)
John W Symcock 1 Grandson

Well, that's it then.

in 1891, Ellen is with her parents and William is with his, who are - James and Harriet, not James and Emily.

Still don't know where Waterfall Farm came in?

I think we've got him three times now, working in tandem! or tricycle!

Pauline, family memories are wonderful as back-up, but there is no substitute for hard evidence.

I'm 100% confident, thanks to mine and other people's convictions, that William's parents are James and Harriet.

It all keeps the old grey matter working!

That all does make sense but now I have to work out where Emily comes into the equation

Waterfall Farm
On John Williams military death cert it clearly states:
Name: Simcock J. W.
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment: North Staffordshire Regiment
Unit Text: 8th Bn
Age: 28 (not 30)
Additional information: Son of William Simcock of Waterfall Farm, Basnetts Wood, Endon, Staffs

Thank you for all your help I am now going to see if I can get (at least) Williams birth cert to see just who was his mother

I must add, I am sorry to hear that John William died in WW1. I have 7 rellies died in that war. Must tell you about my great uncle Leonard Stokes, born 1898. Married his sweetheart Alma in Feb 1917, died 4 months later age 19, not knowing his young wife was pregnant with their daughter. Little Alma was born October 1917, sadly died aged 18 months of diptheria. I've never discovered what happened to her mother after that.

So, I hope we've managed to solve the great grandparents of John William.