Find Ancestors

Hi, I'm awake! Well out of bed anyway. Give me a few minutes to read your replies. Val

Ivy (edited, I said Minnie at first) McCarthy who married a Charles Carter in 1920 was this one:

10553/1894 birth
MCCARTHY IVY M
father WILLIAM
mother MINNIE W
COOMA

3192/1892 marriage
MCCARTHY MICHAEL
SCHAEFFER MINNIE W
COOMA

Got that father's name wrong (on the marriage cert) too.


edited to add death:

20997/1978
CARTER IVY MAY
no father stated
mother MINNIE
no district stated in online record

Good you're awake. 'Cause I can't say as I am ...

Now, here we have the marriage of the parents of the Charles Carter who married Ivy McCarthy:

Marriages Dec 1875
CARTER William Thomas Leeds 9b 669
STEWART Margaret Noble Leeds 9b 669


and two options for a son Charles:

Births Mar 1881
CARTER Charles Lewis Leeds 9b 420 S
-- nope, that one died the following quarter

Births Dec 1889
Carter Charles Leeds 9b 418

Hi EvieB, Just typed you a long reply, clicked submit and it's gone. So here I go again.

Yes you have the correct Ivy MCCarthy. And I have noted the spelling as well. On

To redo my last reply. First thank you for finding me. A bit desolate yesterday. I think George Kimberley (1834) is Alfred Georges father and Alfred carried on the family tradition of circus performer.

It is most definitely the family in 1901. Ivy (Mariann) would have been 17. Wonder when she started calling herself Ivy. Wonder where she went.


Your research skills are amazing. How did you find Charles and MIE travelling to Australia. I spent hours searching FMP and have actually printed off every page I could find with Carter/Kimberley on it. Looks like that's how they came to Aust.

Yes I found the Kimberleys in the 1881 census. Not quite certain who to pick but now I know the names of the children through your amazing efforts I will be able to narrow down the search. Does that help with the 1881 census probably not but need to check ages of children.

Keep thinking about why Charles said that he and MIE were married in London. (Well on her death certificate anyway). If they met on board the ship coming out to Australia why say you were married before you left England and they not go as a married couple on the voyage. Unless they ran away together.

have requested Charles death certificate, the birth certificate of Beatrice Charles and MIE's youngest daughter (to establish who her mother was). Also Ivy McCarthy's death certificate to establish who her children were.

I am going to copy this message first and then click submit again.

Thank you. You are a gem!

Deaths in NSW to 1989 with
surname Carter
father Charles
mother Ivy


10309/1966 - yours
CARTER ELSIE JOYCE
CHARLES EDWARD
MARIANNE IVY
BURWOOD

27699/1948 - yours
CARTER ROY CHARLES
CHARLES EDWARD
MARIANNE IVY E
RYDE

15510/1977
CARTER NORMAN STEWART
CHARLES
IVY MAY
no district stated



I'm not seeing any reason to think anything except coincidence. Remember, I have a grx2 grfather Charles Carter. They litter the landscape.

Except the bit of your previous post I didn't quite get.

"With every scrap of what's left of my brain i can not work out how Charles Edward Carter could marry Ivy May McCarthy in 1920, at the time of the birth of the 6th child on Mariann's death certificate, list all nine children on her death certificate if they were not all hers and his, change his occupation from a farmer to a clerk, take 7 years off his age, still live at the same address as his first "wife" Mariann Ivy Elizabeth Carter, be the informant at her death and be buried next to her when he died 15 years after her death."

Not that you get it.


When:

Charles Carter
married
Ivy May McCarthy

*that* Charles Carter was living at the same address as -- what? and when? and whom?

Oh! Duy! George is Alfred's father!

Alfred George in 1901 -- I wasn't paying attention:

Name: Alfred G Kimberley
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt *1857* not 1834
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Where born: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England


And I STILL can't find the household in 1891.

If he was circus, there's a good chance they were out of the country. That other family I mentioned, from a thread here, had one kid born in Denmark, where they obviously were on one of the census dates.

About Ivy McCarthy. I still can not believe that this is the same Charles who travelled to Aust with MIE. If you do a search of Charles Carter in NSW around that time there are many of them.. And there is a whole lot of them in the Cooma region.

I am going to go back again and start searching for a marriage for Charles and MIE in Australia. If they landed here in 1909 and their first child Nellie was born in 1911, they could have married in those two years before her birth. I have done this search before but dismissed the results when I received MIEs death certificate and the info about her marrying in London.

I am visiting the area where Charles and Mariann lived in Australia at the end of June. I have arranged to visit the historical museum which has provided me with a lot of my information. I am so looking forward to this visit..

Val

"Keep thinking about why Charles said that he and MIE were married in London. (Well on her death certificate anyway). If they met on board the ship coming out to Australia why say you were married before you left England and they not go as a married couple on the voyage. Unless they ran away together."

Well -- I still think your Charles is *my* Charles from the now-deceased thread -- the seaman type who was already married. I can't remember where / when / to whom now. All that stuff - glad you have it copied, anyhow.

Could you just reproduce the bare bones about him?

birth
parents' names
wife's name
where he was in each census
(I remember them moving back and forth)

Ancestry is refusing to find him by name and mother's name (Hannah) in 1891 or 1881; it is simply disregarding the mother's name.


Oh, FMP -- I just searched for Kimberley and then Kimberly departures, dob 1884 +/- 2, to Australia, 1900-1912 or some such.

M I Kimberly was the only result in whatever search I did.

So then I searched for a Charles Carter going to the same place the same year. Again, he was the only result.

Now, they could be a coincidence ...

Our replies are crossing. Are you keeping up???

The bit about my disbelief. On MIE's death certificate. She died in 1947
Place of death Home of Peace Petersham marrickville. Late of 4 Ewenton Street Balmain.
Informant: CE Carter Widower, 4 Ewenton Street Balmain.
Spouse Charles Edward Carter (Married)

Place married London, England
Age at marriage. 25

That means she married in London in 1909. (on her death certificate)

That means that CE Carter was living at the same address as MIE Carter just before she died in 1947 and that he was the informant at her death.

As I said he was buried next to her in 1962, 16 years after she died.

Does that sound like a man who married another woman in 1920.

By the way when did Ivy McCarthy die????

Also I have the unshakeable conviction of Charles Edward Carter's grandson that his grandfather only had one wife and he can remember when she died in 1947.

This was him -- you had your Charles's place of birth somewhere and it matches? as does the DOB:

Births Mar 1876
Carter Charles Edward Sunderland 10a 719


Yeesh. Mother was "Hannah M" in 1881.


Name: Charles E. Carter
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Hannah M.
Where born: Sunderland

Civil Parish: Bromley St Leonard
County/Island: London
Street address: 181 St Leonards St Fishmongers Shop
father = fishmonger


James Carter 42
Hannah M. Carter 41
Walter J. Carter 17 - ship's steward -- and you have a Walter
John T. Carter 16
Henrietta R. Carter 8
William H. Carter 4
Charles E. Carter 3
Emma A. Carter 1


1891

Name: Charles Edward Carter
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Hannah Maria
Where born: Sunderland

Civil Parish: Westoe
County/Island: Durham
Registration district: South Shields

James Carter 53
Hannah Maria Carter 52
Walter James Carter 27 - general seaman
John Thomas Carter 25 - general seaman
Harriet Rosette Carter 18
William Hawkins Carter 16 - butcher's helper
Charles Edward Carter 15 - butcher
Alfred Budd Carter 13
Emma Amelia Carter 11

Will go back through the paper work to find the Charles and Hannah you are talking about. Fairly certain I saw the info there yesterday.

I have to go. I have to take my aged body to a fitness class this morning and do more damage to my muscles and bones. Woman should know when to give up. I'll catch you later.

You know how much I appreciate your help. Val

You may have missed my edit to add Ivy May McCarthy Carter's death: 1978 (phew, just under the wire for online data).

I hope you aren't reproducing the Charles Edward Carter son of Hannah stuff that I did manage to find again ...

But -- if you do have his marriage and him in the later census where I'm pretty sure he had a seafaring occupation.


Now, here's an idea.

Charles and Ivy married on board ship.

Or, like, they didn't marry. Because Charles already was. (Not that a lot of married people didn't go to Australia and marry again anyhow. The uncle of my weird gr-grfather's sister's husband had wives in Wales, Chile, NSW and England, at least two at a time.)

That's right. By my theory, you're related to Kim. ;)


Marriages Dec 1896
> Bassenger Elizabeth Ann W Ham 4a 239
> CARTER Charles Edward W. Ham 4a 239
RODEN Sarah Elliot W.Ham 4a 239
SAUNDERS Richard West Ham 4a 239


1901

Name: Charles Carter
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth A
Where born: Sunderland, Durham, England

Occupation: Leading Seaman H.M.S.

Name: Elizabeth A Carter
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Charles
Where born: Limehouse, London, England

Civil Parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex

Charles Carter 27
Elizabeth A Carter 24


Trying to determine whether that Elizabeth died before 1909/1911 ... good luck.

had another conversation with OH with regard to CE Carter. OH is of the conviction that he was a chief petty officer, or held some rank in the Merchant Marine. That he served in the Merchant Marine in WW1. Based on the age at death 86, and date of birth 1876. CE Carter would ahve been 38 during WW1 and 63 in WW2. OH believes he was involved with the Queen Mary liner at some stage.

The children's wedding certificates have him as a farmer/poultry in 1931, 1934, 1937.

Ah ha. Interesting discovery. In 1945 Mabel Carter (daughter of CE and MIE) married again. I have her transcript. Name of father Charles Edward Carter, mother Ivy Kimma (sic). Occupation of father Night Watchman.

Kimma, incorrect spelling of Kimberley. End of the war CE Carter is now 69 and is doing his bit for the war effort as a night watchman.

Please note. Name of mother is not McCarthy. MIE Carter nee Kimberley died two years later in 1947. No that's not relevant because we know that MIE is Mabel's mother.

I'm about to give our National Archives a hurry up to release the info about Charles Edward Carter and his campaign medals.

Spent half the day searching. Now know what Charles and MIE did not do. They did not marry in New South Wales Australia. I searched from 1900 to 1947 with "Carter", "Kimberley" as separate searches, then "Carter and Kimberley" as joint searches. No one of that name married the other name in that time. Then searched every carter, every kimberley etc etc. No matches at all.

Re Ivy McCarthy. In the years between 1909 and 1920 there were 284 carter marriages, including 8 charles carters and 2 charles edward carters. Any of them would be a match. Don't understand the choice of Charles Carter and Ivy mcCarthy. Unless it is the first name.

Re-searched UK marriages again. Charles Edward Carter and Ivy, or Mariann, or Elizabeth Kimberley. Can see where I have previously searched.

One little item does bear more checking. Marriage in 1908 in Sunderland, reference 10a 843. Charles Edward Carter is on the page and also Elizabeth Jane "Kellie". OK so it's a long shot. Kellie, Kimberley. I can't make the page open into the scan to have a look at it. Edit: Nope disregard Elizabeth Kellie was born Dec 1873 so she exists.

Now there is another niggle. In my info from Picton/Tahmoor (the Church records) it gives the date of baptism for the children of Charles and MIE.

Remembering they were born commencing 1911 and concluding 1927. I don't know the details of Nellie and Albert but Shirley, Mabel, Elsie, George and Beatrice were all baptised on 17 Aug 1924. Walter was baptised on 4 May 1931.

Why such a delay between their births and baptisms?

Have found MIE coming to Australia, as you said, single in 1909 aged 25. All matches. So why is she supposed to have married in London aged 25 in 1909. Interesting.

Could not find Charles Carter on the same ship - Marathon.

Have him coming to Australia in (I think) Aug 1909 on the Osterley.

Have found George Kimberly by his occupation in the census.

Can not find Alfred on the 1881 or 1891 census.

I know FreeBDM is free but what is the best census source. I'm finding that sometimes I don't get the same matches on Free BDM. Shouldn't happen should it??I have a "voyages" subs on FMP, which lasts until April. The downside about that is it only goes from 1890. I have other lines of the family that I'll be searching as soon as I've put Charles in his right spot.

Have put in a request for an answer about Charles Carter's campaign stars and medals. The one born in Sunderland. Expalined why I wanted the info. Hopefully they will hurry up.

You just haven't learned yet that I'm always right and I never lie!

Charles Edward Carter born 1876 in Sunderland, mother Hannah, occupation leading seaman in 1901.

Fits all your specs.

Married in 1896. In the 1901 census. Not detectable in the 1911 census.

Possibly never married Ivy because of pre-existing marriage.

Lots and lots and lots of people lied about being married. Divorce was not accessible to most people. Moving to Australia and starting over worked for them.

The 1896 marriage certificate could provide useful info (to confirm he is the Charles Edward son of Hannah and James).

Children baptised as a batch -- not hugely uncommon. I haven't figured out why my gr-grfather and his younger siblings were baptised as a batch in the 1850s, and their older siblings weren't -- and one of the older ones was, obviously in comtemplation of death, at about age 26, after about 18 yrs (months - 18 months, not years, duh) of marriage.

Possibly some new leniency was being shown to unmarried parents for baptising their children. That would fit with my theory. ;)

OK. I'll go along with your theories. I'll apply for the 1896 marriage certificate. I have Charles death certificate coming which probably won't give me more info than what we already know.

I keep wondering if in 1924 the children decided to take their father's name and they were all baptised as a result. Although a naming ceremony is usually only the given names of the child. Nope they were all registered in birth with the Carter name. Their marriage certificates all bear the Carter name. I suppose they would have called themselves Carter without regard for the fact that mum and dad were not married. Well not so far as is recorded in the BDM index.

Will now wait for the certificates and any other info the powers that be allow me to have.

And thanks, I don't disbelieve you, just have trouble putting it all together when it is contrary to what we thought was the story based on up until now known facts. Val

Hi, I think I'm back. Oh no, you all groan. Yep! Reburbished computer as well, twice as fast, half as dangerous. Still looking for all my email, inbox, address list which had disappeared during the upgrade. It's there somewhere. Oh heavens I hope it's there.

OK, in our last episode I agreed to agree with conclusive conclusions in the absence of other information. More certificates have arrived. The end result being I have two additional pieces of information.

I now have CE Carter's Death certificate: I'll abbreviate the headings.
Name: Charles Edward Carter
Occup: Seaman (pls note: EvieB)
Age 86 years.
Died: 25 Apr 1962 Lidcombe NSW etc
Where born: Unknown England (Yikes, good start)
Length reside Aust: 52 years (ah ha date arrived 1910)
Name father: Unknown Carter (very informative)
Occup: Ropemaker (first clue and I think it's there in the census!!)
Name mother: Anna Green (second clue)
Where married: Unknown England (doing well aren't we)
At what age: 33 years (if he was 52 yrs in Aust, was born in 1876, should have been married in 1909)
To whom: Marion Elizabeth (Unknown)
Conjugal cond time death (Nothing written)
Issue: George, Mrs Bird, Mrs Armour, None Deceased. (ages not given)

And it goes on with the rest of the info about what, who, where buried etc.

Issue: George was the 6th child, Mrs Bird we think was Elsie, Mrs Armour was Shirley. No mention of Nellie, Albert, Walter, Mabel, Beatrice, Roy.

Informant for the certificate was the Assistant Manager of the Lidcombe State Hospital and Home.

Next bit of Info is NSW BDM result of search marriage for Charles Edward Carter. Between 1900 and 1919 no trace can be found of registration of his marriage to any person.

I also have marriage certificate Charles Carter and Ivy May McCarthy, married 2 Dec 1920. His age at time of marriage was 37. This gives him a date of birth of 1883. His place of birth was Leeds England, his mother and father we have already worked out as William Carter and Margaret Noble Stewart. Occupation of this Charles Carter, Clerk. I think I can rules him out as being my Charles Carter. However in the interests of truth justice and accuracy I have a requested a search for her death certificate with emphasis on children's names.

So there you have it. I've a heap of sorting to do to make this 'puter look like I own it.

Oh heavens I have just had a thought. Just remembered something. Lookeee at the marriages Jun 1863.

Evie, it's on the print out of the old thread.

CARTER James Mile End 1c 1005
GREEN Hannah Mary Mile End 1c 1005

Hannah - Anna Green
Waddayoureckonyouclevergirl!!!

I reckon I'm a clever girl. Of course!

I forget where it started ... I think I was just skimming down a page of 50 results of a search for Charles Carter-s ... and I saw "Hannah" in the list of mothers ... and it went ding.

Of course the big question is: he was married for some 13 or some such years before going to Australia. (You do need that marriage certificate still. You didn't think you were finished?) So ... apart from whether he was still married all the time he was in Australia and what happened to his wife ... did he leave kids in England?

Your mission, should you choose to accept it ...