Find Ancestors

You have just entered the Backhouse Zone. Be warned there are lots of them. As I said elsewhere there are 22 in Jacob's dad's family.

I have not yet begun to search this part of the family with any enthusiasm.

Have not done any searching for Hawkins etc in Sydney. Will leave that till I am over there in two weeks time. Goodness knows how I am going to fit everything in I hope to accomplish.

I have the certificates for Mabel Grace's last two marriages. Also her death certificate which was of no help at all, and downright stupidly incorrect.

Never mind nudging. I hate nudging.

I did see, in My Threads, and read ... and thought: here be the point at which I am useless. I can't even find Mabel's last marriage.

There's one AA Hawkins in the NSW white pages. Have you considered? And of course several DE Hawkins-s. Yours is probably not the Rev. ;)


Could this death be relevant?

22713/1961
BACKHOUSE JACOB ANDREW
father JACOB
mother GRACE
NOWRA


Another possible child? if Mabel Grace used the name Grace?

Actually, I see two other deaths for children of that couple:
George Sydney in 1959
Francis Alexander in 1944

so they're probably another family.

... Yup, all born in the 1870-80s. Relations of Jacob whom Mabel Grace married, I imagine.

N for WW

Let’s bring the thread up to date.

Despite much research work, with lots of appreciated input of other researchers on the Kimberley Part 2 thread I have been unable to uncover the whereabouts of Mariann Ivy Elizabeth Kimberley between her birth in 1884 and when she is registered on board the ship traveling to Australia.

I believe she worked as a domestic probably under the name of either Elizabeth or Mary Ann.

Back to Charles Edward Carter.

Have his Merchant Navy Record of Service card, well a copy of it. It is illegible and is going to take me a while to decipher some of the wording. Part 1 confirms his service during WW2 which is documented on this thread. (Aquitania and Themistocles). On that document are also the words. “Efficiency as boat hand – Marathon 10/9/09” He also traveled to Australia on 21 Aug 1909. MIE Kimberley traveled to Australia on 7 Jul 1909.

On the second sheet there are two ships names, one is Mt Stewart and the other looks like Kirouito (very hard to read), the dates are impossible. There are two addresses one looks like 32 Harrogate Road Wyan……… Nope impossible to read, even with a magnifying glass. Damn.


According to Church records, NSW BDM records, electoral office records 1930 and 1936 and some certificates. Charles Edward Carter and Mariann Ivy Elizabeth Kimberley had nine children.

To refresh memories. There is no evidence that they married in UK prior to 1909. They did not marry in NSW Australia anytime after that. They also did not marry in Queensland or Victoria. CECs wife Elizabeth Ann Bassenger died c 1901 Sunderland UK.

MIEK and CEC's children and dates of birth were Nellie Myra 1911, Albert E.F. 1912, Walter 1914, Mabel Grace 1915, Elsie Joyce 1917, George Arthur 1919, Beatrice ivy Christina 1922, Shirley Valerie 1925, Royal 1927.

I have sourced certificates and transcripts for information on these children and it is fairly constant that they all used the Carter family name. I won’t go into details, would take too long to list all.

Under the adoption act I have been allowed a Birth Extract Certificate for Mabel Grace. You will see on the list of children that MG is the fourth born. Certificate reads Mabel Grace Kimberley, dob 19 Oct 1915, place Newtown NSW, fathers name - , mothers name Marianne Ivy Elizabeth.


Mabel Grace married Jacob Backhouse in 1934. She is called Mabel Grace Carter on her wedding certificate and MIE and CE Carter are listed as parents. Mabel and Jacob B. had four children John J, Dawn Elizabeth Frances, Robert Charles Edward and Jacob George Backhouse (born 25 Feb 1941).

Jacob Backhouse (father) died in 27 Jun 1941 at Tobruk Egypt. Robert Charles died aged two on 2nd April 1941 of bronchopneumonia.

Jacob George Backhouse (son) was adopted on 22 May 1942.

I do not know if John J. and Dawn Elizabeth were also adopted. I can find no data for John J. between 1937 and 1978. I have found a marriage for Dawn Elizabeth Frances. In 1955 DEF Backhouse married Albert Arthur Hawkins. Dawn’s parents are listed as Jacob Backhouse (deceased) and Mabel Grace Carter. On the transcription her occupation is given as domestic duties and her usual residence (very curiously) Royal North Shore Hospital, St Leonards (NSW).

There is no death listed for Dawn Hawkins up to 1978 which is the limit of the search I am permitted. I am also not allowed to search for children of the marriage.

Mabel Grace married twice more, once in 1945 and again in 1949. There may have been a child from the 1949 marriage or he might have been a stepson.

And why am I concentrating on Mabel Grace. Jacob George Backhouse was renamed by his adoptive family and became my OH. If you have managed to follow the journey, Dawn Elizabeth and John J. are his brother and sister by birth. OH was brought up as an only child and this research is an attempt to sort out his ancestry.

just nudge for now so I can find it when I'm ready.

BC yes. Father James, Mother Hannah nee Green. Correct place of birth. All the children from the census 1881, 1891. Addresses. Some census data for siblings is skewiff but CEs tracks through OK. Details of first marriage, death of first wife. Travelling to Aus 1909.

At the end of next month I visit the place where CEC and MIEK lived on arrival in this country. Have arranged for access to historical data, church and school records of their children. Also hoping to visit cemetery where they are buried.

Next step. Find MIEK from birth to voyage to Aust. Suspect that between 1891 and 1901 censuses she left home to work as a domestic. Silly woman keeps changing the order of her given names so it is difficult to pinpoint which "K" she actually is.

Your encouragement is contagious!!

Well well! Excellent! So he was indeed Charles Edward Carter, son of Hannah. What a stroke of luck the birth info in the military record was.

To save me reviewing all the info here -- you have the birth cert for the CEC son of Hannah who was traced through the censuses, and the date matches?

So both parties have been identified, and even if you can't figure out how they got together - 'how', both physically and officially ;) -- you know where you're going for going backward, anyhow!

Thank you for asking. I was lucky enough to receive the info I needed from Oz National Archives yesterday so I now have my info from the Campaign Stars and medals, for CE Carter.

Right bloke. We have right date and place of birth Sunderland 4/2/1876. Right address both he and MIE lived at in Balmain Sydney.

Right that he was in the Merchant Marine during the second world war (underlined). He was aboard the Aquitania when it picked up German survivors from the battle between the Kormoran and the Sydney.

He also spent two years on the Themistocles which remained as a passenger liner throughout the war.

Gives his entitlement to his medals.

No personal information apart from the above.

One very small bit of interest. Written on one of the pages above the dates and places he served in WW2 are the words. "Previous ship 1909". That is the year he came to Australia on the Marathon.

Theory about him still being a crew member during that voyage may be worth investigating.

Am I getting better at this posting business? Remembering to paragraph my posts, pmsl.

Well now, isn't this a fun thread!

Any more news, like about the Campaign Stars and medals, for CE Carter? Right bloke?

Received transcript of Beatrice Ivy Christina Carter's marriage to Reginald Rupert Bricknell in 1946. Shows Beatrice, who was the second youngest of the children, was the daughter of CE Carter and Marian Ivy Kimberley.

Marriage took place 7 months before Mariann died. Address of Beatrice is given as the same place CE and Mariann lived.

Well you did warn me not to delete anything.

I thought it was you with your expert knowledge messing up my deletion.


Hey I can not only delete threads (which I didn't because it's still jolly well there) I can also doom whole boards. Yippppeeee!

I'll fill you in on the other stuff a little later. Once I have visited the place where all this happened and checked out some ridgy didge records for myself I will put this part of the family to bed and start on the other side.

Now that lot had 23 children in one family including two sets of triplets and one set of twins. I kid you not!!

Then of course there's my lot. Very dignified, sophisticated mob with no skeletons in the closet, oh what a fibber you are Val!!

Looking at the dates, I wondered: (my) Charles Edward Carter was a ship's steward at some point, no? I wonder whether they met on board when MIE travelled to Australia, and he completed his voyage back and then went back out joined her? Same vessel, a few weeks later.

Never fear -- I'm perfectly happy when somebody gets the docs that prove I'm right. ;)

Urgh, I'm getting them muddled in my head with somebody with a similar tale, only her rellies parked themselves in South Africa first before going and shacking up in Australia and pretending they were married ...

And actually - remember ...? Not at all! I hadn't even seen your oeuvre that far back, to know it was living relations you were looking for!

On that one, adoptions in Australia, I bow out. On yer own. With my best wishes of course. ;)


... what's this unexpected error crud? ... ah, I see, I have successfully posted two blank messages. You can't do that if you try. Kind of like catching your belt loop on the door jamb thingy ... So I try again!

... that makes three ...


Alrighty now -- here we go!

Hi EB, Yep, I think I have my documented proof that they were not married. Now I have to work out why, don't I. And I also need to know (1)where Mariann went between the time she left home and the time she embarked for Australia. (2) Which of a Charles Edward Carter's marriages between 1906 and 1909, if any, fits this family (3) when they started calling their children "Carter" (4)how and where they met (which might be an impossibility). (5) What other info would be on a full birth certificate.

With regard to where Mariann went there are a few possibilities of her working as a servant in the 1901 census. 1911 census is no good because she has left for Aust.

There were two certificates in this batch.

Remember months ago when I first started this, I said the reason for being so public was because we were looking for OH living relatives.

Second certificate was his original birth certificate.

He has siblings, other than Robert Charles Edward B. who died in 1941 aged 2. There is a brother John J. born c1937 and a sister Dawn E. born 1938.

Next step is to find out if these two were also adopted or whether they stayed with their mother. No deaths or marriages for them under their birth name in the NSW BDM within the time frame allowed for searching.

And yes I do not mind acknowledging that you were right, are right! Constantly! I just need the documentation that goes with the gut feeling.

Edit. Just had a thought that I really need all the birth certificates to work out whether MIE was the mother of all of them and when CE Carter started to be acknowledged as the father. Oh bother!

Acceptance will come. ;)

Yer hubby's ancestors weren't married!

Well ... not to each other, anyway. ;)

Certificates have arrived. I have two. Will deal with them separately.

England to Australia 1909
Recap on what info I have.

There is no record of a marriage between CE Carter and MIE Kimberley in London between 1906 (CE Carter’s wife Elizabeth died in 1906) and 1909.

MIE Kimberley travelling to NSW on 7 Jul 1909.
CE Carter travelling to NSW on 21 Aug 1909. Both on board Marathon.

From Reel 195 St Marks Church England Church Records Picton NSW listing six children all with family name Carter all born between 1913 and 1919 (two without dates of birth, and two are missing). Differing dates of baptism.

Highly suspect 1947 death certificate for MIE Carter listing nine children born between 1911 and 1927. Starting with Nellie, including Walter and Mabel Grace, concluding with Roy.

Electoral Roll Picton NSW for 1930 and 1936 showing CE Carter and MIE Carter living at same address.

Marriage certificates for Walter Carter 1937 (and his spouse) and Mabel Grace Carter 1934 (and her spouse). Marriage transcript for Nellie Myra Carter born 1911. All listing MIE Kimberley and CE Carter as parents.

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
Because the birth of the children falls outside of the historical indexes it is difficult to obtain certificates for them. Today we received this birth extract info for Mabel Grace via a “special circumstance” proviso. We are waiting for Walter’s certificate to arrive. Walter is the third and Mabel G is the fourth child in the family.

Birth Extract Certificate.
The birth of : Mabel Grace Kimberley
Date of Birth: 19 October 1915
Place of Birth NSW
Fathers Name: -
Mothers Name: Marianne Ivy Elizabeth

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Searching the historical indexes shows that no female with the surname Kimberley married any male with the surname Carter between 1909 and 1958 in New South Wales.

Hey, look status quo. Talking to myself again. Don't really need this to be back up there but wish to record information so it can be referenced if needed.

(1)Campaign medals and stars. The files have been found and will be made available to me. I've paid my fee. Having the digital image appear on the site may take up to 30 days. It is definitely to do with the merchant navy. That was in the description of the info.

(2) Have received certificate for marriage of Charles Edward Carter and unknown missing person from the marriage index. Does not match if the following events are correct.
MIE and Charles Edward went to Australia in 1909 (on separate voyages). Charles was born in 1876. Charles father's name was James.

Surplus Certificate
This certificate was for a marriage between Charles Edward Carter and Georgina Maud Hierons, 26 Apr 1910 in Kingston Surrey. This CE Carter's fathers name was also CE Carter. This CE Carter was also 12 years younger and also a bachelor.


Anyone researching Charles Edward Carter aged 22 (whose father's name was also CE Carter) who married a Georgina Maud Hierons aged 24 on 26 Apr 1910. Georgina's father's name was George Hierons. If you'd like a copy of their marriage certificate, just yell.

This thread may now slide into the background until there's more news

No further forward, still waiting for replies.

Spent considerable time writing up all the info. Have a page and a half of questions and loose ends. Answers to these will just require searching Free BDM or Ancestry.

One anomaly.
If MIE and CE went to Australia on 7 July and 21 Aug 1909 respectively, the 1910 marriage between unknown and CE Carter is irrelevant. (I've sent for the cert).

Have also placed enquiry with your National Archives people regarding passports for UK citizens travelling to Australia

Notwithstanding the obvious that they never married in UK - could she possibly have travelled to Aust under her maiden name because she went as an assisted passage immigrant and it was cheaper to travel that way rather than as a married woman?

Most of other questions relate to dates of birth, marriage or death of different individuals.

Waiting for replies to one of MIE and CE's children's birth cert, and the query re the campaign medals.

Ok certificate applied for.
Last certificates took 11 days to get here. Pretty quick.

Going back to re-search FMP for the voyages. Still have subscript there.

Also might try incoming to Sydney NSW end.

Thank you. By the way, would you like to borrow my labrador ....... he just loves cats.

Goodnight

Me, I have no prob with quantity of words. It's run-on sentences and absence of paragraphing that drive me bonkers!

The Hannah Greens are confirmation that the CEC who married Bassenger was the one from Sunderland, anyhow, since Hannah Jr was the Sunderland CEC's mother.

I'm tired and growing dim. Yes, you may order the marriage cert with one party's name only -- in fact it's generally safer to, since pre-1911 one can't be sure who someone married w/o the cert anyhow.

Will be waiting for those emigration details with bated breath!

Hi EB I'm here and reading. So I'm not going crazy there are/were two Hannah M. Greens. Good.

Thank you for clearing up that point.

No marriage between MIE Kimberley and CE Carter. Remember MIE Kimberley (supposedly) went to Aust under her maiden name in 1909/1910.

I am assuming I can apply for marriage certificate without the bride's name.
Consider it done. Of course it could be another Charles Edward Carter.

While speaking with National Archives they asked me was I interested in CE Carter's migration details. I said Yes please. They will be included in the info about his "request for campaign stars/medals".

I am endeavouring to write my communications with a minimum of words of the alphabetic variety in order to promote succinct sentences which are uncomplicated for literary challenged personages to decipher.

How'm I doing??