General Chat

Just going to put in my two penn'th.
The name for Mohammed is ok for humans but not for objects as that would make it an icon or idol and muslims don't allow things or faces to represent their god. As far as I'm aware.
But it's a farce whatever...it's been hyjacked for political ends not religious. I wonder how they would have coped with comedians like Dave Allen !!

Thought the following might be of interest to some, might be (broadly) relevant in terms of giving the name of the Prophet to a toy?.

Rosex


"There is no specific, or explicit ban in the Koran on images of Allah or the Prophet Muhammad - be they carved, painted or drawn.

However, chapter 42, verse 11 of the Koran does say: "[Allah is] the originator of the heavens and the earth... [there is] nothing like a likeness of Him."

This is taken by Muslims to mean that Allah cannot be captured in an image by human hand, such is his beauty and grandeur. To attempt such a thing is seen as an insult to Allah.

The same is believed to apply to Muhammad.

Chapter 21, verses 52-54 of the Koran read: "[Abraham] said to his father and his people: 'What are these images to whose worship you cleave?' They said: 'We found our fathers worshipping them.' He said: 'Certainly you have been, you and your fathers, in manifest error.'"

From this arises the Muslim belief that images can give rise to idolatry - that is to say an image, rather than the divine being it symbolises, can become the object of worship and veneration.

What does Islamic tradition say on the matter?

Islamic tradition or Hadith, the stories of the words and actions of Muhammad and his Companions, explicitly prohibits images of Allah, Muhammad and all the major prophets of the Christian and Jewish traditions.

More widely, Islamic tradition has discouraged the figurative depiction of living creatures, especially human beings. Islamic art has therefore tended to be abstract or decorative.

Shia Islamic tradition is far less strict on this ban. Reproductions of images of the Prophet, mainly produced in the 7th Century in Persian, can be found.

George, relief aid actually does get to where it is needed these days more than it used to. Could you show me the facts you have based your statement on?
It is not a perfect world but I would rather we provided aid in the hope that some gets through rather than turn our backs on more needy people!

Thank you Rose - that is useful. Also serves to remind that the Islamic religion is monotheistic as is Christianity. The two religions are very similar and are considered by some theologians as two different ways of worshipping the same God.

Thank you, Cynthia,
That makes sense and makes their feelings more understandable. Lets hope that the poor child does not get into trouble too, either for not speaking against the idea - although we are told that it was the child's idea we do not really know what happened, only what the papers tell us.- or for suggesting it, if he did.
We also have to remember that some of these countries are being dragged 'kicking and screaming' into the 21st century, partly by modern technology, when they are really still in the 12th C or earlier. Also it is not actually that long ago that we were ducking witches and worse, and there are bits in the Bible about not making graven images or bowing down to them.
Eileen

On the point of local customs/laws, we have had an englishman arrive here recently. His plan is to bring his girlfriend over here to live. He plans to start a family over here whilst unmarried.
NOT the thing to do, if he had spent some time researching the place he would have found out that to have a child when unmarried is likely to land the mother in jail, the child in a nursing home, and the father also in jail. (even having sex before marriage is punishable with jail)

This is not the only lack of information he has, local customs etc meant nothing to him, be was blindly ignorant, and without assistance from us could well have landed himself into big trouble.

I think that there are many different paths leading to the same God, (whatever we choose to name him).

Re aid reaching those who need it, of course it is imperfect...but if only a small proportion of aid given serves its purpose, if one human being who otherwise would die is saved then it is worthwhile (in my opinion).

"Whoever saves one life, saves the world entire".

Rosex

Precisely, Eileen!
On the back of your comment I would also add, yes it was the child's idea. If a child in the UK suggested the school hamster was called Jesus or the class teddy was called Beelzebub would that be ok?
Gillian Gibbons should have used her professional judgment as a teracher and in this case it was lacking.
Or maybe, as a country, sadly our children no longer even know who Jesus or Beelzebub are. Perhaps we should look at ourselves and how we act!

Irrelevant to the current thread I know and apologies for that. I just had to respond.........


Errol you said: George, Britain provides aid for many countries. Would you rather that aid was not provided and those various peoples suffered terribly?


My reply to this is that I would rather our pensioners were looked after and their lives improved before I even thought of giving aid elsewhere.

*dons tin hat*

It comes out of different budgets so although in an ideal world we would "look after our own" first, it will not happen.

A thousand years ago this sort of thing happened in Britian.
Luckily we have advanced towards a more civilised society (not perfect). This sort of thing just shows how far behind some countries are in there way of thinking.

Just seems a shame to me that pensioners' NI and tax contributions are budgetted in such a way.

They PAID to be looked after not left to live like paupers. It's hardly their fault the government abused their pensions like they did or that the needs of others are considered more important than theirs.xx

Yes George, that is no doubt true..

.but until ( and if) that ever happens, are we just to abandon the child dying from an easily preventable disease, or deny someone the chance of an education that will benefit not only them but the wider community? to withdraw the support that provides fresh clean water to villages ?
etc etc...because the governments of the country they live in is undemocratic or corrupt?

Money /aid thrown at the problem will not make it go away, but it may just give people a chance to live and (hopefully) ultimately make a difference in their own countries.

Rosex

I suspect that there must have been some underlying animosity between the teacher and the staff member who reported her. If they had been friendly then surely the secretary would have had a quiet word to explain to the teacher that this wasn't acceptable.

As Mohammed is such a popular name for boys I imagine that it never occured to the teacher that it couldn't be used for a toy. I know that some countries use Jesus as a name but I am sure no English teacher would name a toy that because our culture doesn't ever use it now.
I don't think many Christians or people brought up in Christian countries really understand the position Mohammed the Prophet has in Islam. We know that in Christianity Jesus is seen as the Son of God and part of the Trinity but surely Mohammed isn't actually considered divine?

I'd hate this case to stir up more racial hatred but looking at comments on the AOL home page I see that there are very strong anti Moslem and anti Sudan feelings. Numerous people are talking of never donating to charities working in the Sudan again.

This all shows how much better briefed people who go to work in other countries should be.

Sue

no argument with that ,George!

Rosexx

Sadly, George, some money is diverted towards new tanks, new rifles, new planes etc. However, if one donates to the right charities some of it does get through - not an ideal situation, I know, but better than nothing.

D'you not think that when the judge imposed the sentence of jail he was afraid of a backlash against him if he had given her no sentence at all - he probably would have liked to just release her but was too scared of the clerics. My son has been shopping in Tesco's tonight and said there were a load of students in there wearing teddy bear badges with Mohammed written on them - don't know what to think about that. My son's a train driver by the way and a guard with his company has just been disciplined for turning a veiled woman off his train. She was wearing the veil and he could only see her eyes and therefore could not establish that she was the holder of the rail card she produced. He said "I really don;t know if it is you cos I can't see your face, so I'm afraid I can't let you travel" Fair comment there I thought.

n

Who chose THE CHILD'S name?

fair question