Genealogy Chat

Don't want to throw a spanner in the works but father's first name on marriage cert might not be quite right - I think it was reasonably common for children back then - even grown up children - to not know their parents' first names ...

Hope I've not confused the issue.

On the plus side - one of my female ancestors was given Moscrop as a middle name at birth - no father on cert - and then she used the name Mosscrop Nash as a surname on her marriage cert and named her father. (What with family story plus the Moscrop One Name Study I managed to corroborate all of that.)

Keep at it - you will get there.

Good luck

Jill

Yes, I was wondering who Mary Ann Payne was when I saw her on the census. I bet she's a relation.

I had a quick look on the IGI for births for Henry and Mary Ann, but I couldn't find anything, which is a pity.

If you remember, I found an unmarried Mary Ann Vale as a servant in 1841 - might be worth having a look at the page to see if there are any Josephs living nearby.

William gives his Father's name as Henry Everett Vale on his wedding certificate. No other mention of Everett on anything else I've seen though!

I do at least now know what Mary Ann's and Henry's Father's names are though which helps the search a little. The witness' aren't much help though they do confirm the certificate in that M A Payne is one and she's with them on the 1851 census as a visitor.

I think that might be a good idea about where the Everett came from - if his Father was really called Joseph Everett. I'll keep looking. I'm determined to solve this!

Ah, that's interesting.

So William was presumably illegitimate.

As we haven't found an Everett connection in Henry Bales' family, it's a possibility that William's father was called Joseph Everett. Mary Ann couldn't have registered William under his surname unless he actually went with her to the Registry Office, but lots of women used the putative father's surname as a middle name for the child.

If you could find a baptism for William it might be interesting, because the real father's name is occasionally entered in the baptism register.

I do wonder where the maiden name "Norton" came from, but in view of the Everett name I assume you must have the right birth cert for William.

Anyone who's interested is most welcome to offer an opinion. I'm just posting this here for MaryfromItaly to see against the background of what we looked at so she'll remember why I'm PMing her in a minute!

Marriage cert received this morning:

17 June 1849, St Martin in the Fields.
Henry Bales, full age, Widower, Porter. Father Benjamin Bales - surgical instrument maker.
Mary Ann Vale, full age, SPINSTER. Father Henry Vale - stationer.

What do you think then?

God that's brilliant. How on earth do you do it so fast? I started this when my son was born you know - he's two years old now.

I was just trawling the IGI site for Everett marriages (being fewer Everetts than Bales!) but not getting anywhere fast. Helps having their names though doesn't it?! Ann Bales it is then, lol.

There's got to be an Everett in there somewhere but then it might be a family middle name passed down through the generations. I'm no expert (in case you hadn't noticed) but I have noticed that having your Mother's maiden name as a middle name was very popular in the 1700's. Prob a women's lib thing!

The IGI gives the exact date of Mary and Henry's marriage:

HENRY BALES
Male

Event(s):

Marriages:
Spouse: MARY ANN VALE
Marriage: 17 JUN 1849 Saint Martin In The Fields, Westminster, London, England

Here's Henry's first wife's death:

Deaths Sep 1848 (>99%)
Bales Louisa St Martin 1 94

and a probable death for him:

Deaths Mar 1862 (>99%)
Bales Henry St. Martin 1a 300

Can't find Henry and Louisa's marriage.

This might be his birth:

HENRY CHARLES BALES
Male

Event(s):
Birth: 19 OCT 1811

Christening: 13 NOV 1811 Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road, Saint Marylebone, London, England

Parents:
Father: THOMAS BALES
Mother: ANN

I was hoping to find his parents' marriage and that his mother was an Everett, but I can't find it.

Lol, nothing worse than an unanswerable question is there?!

If Joseph was fictitious to cover up the illegitimacy issue that would explain the lack of records, the reason for "both" of Mary's husbands having the middle name Everett, Mary Ann not appearing to have had any other children etc.

At first I thought it a bit far-fetched considering she gives the maiden name "Norton" on the birth cert but that said, it would probably have been a natural thing to say if that was her own Mother's name? And I know people got away with an awful lot pre-1920 when it came to official records having seen a few fibs from my early 1900's lot already.

Ahh, I just hope that the marriage cert will answer a few questions. I ordered it last night but with Christmas approaching fast - who knows how long it'll take!

It is annoying. I assumed Joseph Everett Vale must have existed, because if she'd just wanted to invent a father's name to sound respectable, that's not the sort of name you'd expect her to come up with.

But you're right, she could have been Henry's mistress, and simply substituted another Christian name for his. Time to investigate whether Henry has any Everett connections.

I've already looked for births and marriages with Everett as a surname, but no joy, and nothing in the Hugh Wallis middle names index - the only Vales with Everett as a middle name in Middlesex are William and his son William Benjamin Everett Vale.

This actually caught my eye because I had an uncle called William Everett - no relation, but it's bugging me too, now :-)

I've just deleted my post...

Henry Bales had a wife and family right? And on William's marriage certificate he gives his Father as Henry Everett Vale right?

And on William's birth cert we see Joseph Everett Vale. Now the Everett bit was bugging me...

What if you're right about the illigitmate bit? Only Mary Ann knew full well who Dad was but couldn't really say at that time???? Mistress???

I think you might do well to get the Vale-Bales marriage cert, which will confirm her age and marital status, and give you her first married name as well as her maiden name if she was married twice.

She could even have invented Joseph if the children were illegitimate. There's at least one apparently single Mary Ann Vale on the 1841 census as a female servant.

DOH. I was counting on that... You can tell when a history problem is bugging me btw - I'm on here for about four days straight.

They have to have at least passed for married because their son William (my 3 x Gt Grandfather) is registered as William Everett Vale, Father Joseph Everett Vale, Mother Mary Ann Vale formerly Norton.

I've been staring at the cert today wondering if it maybe isn't Norton but I really do think it is.

Besides that, I've tried searching Vale page by page from 1837 to 1844 then matching up ANY men with Nortons - no joy. I then tried searching the whole of Strand - where William was born but couldn't see any similar surnames.

I mean maybe they did marry pre-1837 but I can't see it's too likely. They might have never married and just lied on the birth cert I guess too - I've got quite a few that told fibs on a variety of certs over the decades.

How irritating. I can't even see their Christian names on that page.

I think you may have to discount the 1847 death I found for Joseph - if you look at the 1841 census there's a Joseph Vale aged 60 with (presumably his wife) Sarah in St. George in the East, who seems a more likely candidate for that death.

I had a good look for a marriage for Mary and Joseph, but didn't find anything. That means there's a possibility they weren't married, and the children's births may be registered under the name of Norton.

Mind you, I just found this:

Name: Joseph
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Gender: Male

Civil Parish: St George Middlesex
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: St George in the East
Sub-registration district: St Paul
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:

Joseph 20
Mary 20

I can't read the original image though! Grr, right names, right ages, right location - but I just can't read that surname on the image. Neither could the transcriber in fairness!

No I can't find Joseph in 1841 either but then the 1841 census is always a pickle anyway.

I never thought to search for William with the parent's first names; I tried Henry and Mary Ann with no surnames but got a huge list I couldn't see any likely candidates for. It was probably there though!

I found them in 1851 by searching for William, no surname, parents Henry and Mary, born 1844 +/-5 in Middlesex.

I can't find Joseph or Mary in 1841, but I've found what looks like Henry with his first wife and children. Charles was one of his.

1841 England Census
about Charles Bales
Name: Charles Bales
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St Mary Le Strand
Hundred: Westminster
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England


Registration district: Strand
Sub-registration district: St Mary
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Alfred Bales 8
Charles Bales 2
Ellen Bales 8
Emily Bales 6
Louisa Bales 30
Marth Bales 4
Nuny Bales 30 (Henry on the image)
William Bales 10

I'd seen that death, and dismissed it having not recognised St Geo. Having just googled it though, I find it's an abbreviation for St GEORGE as in LONDON.

Oh bless me. I always get these problems when I stare at problems for too long...

Thanks so much mary, you've been an absolutely brilliant help and I'd have never worked this out without you! Hopefully you've given me what I need to move on now :o)

Eleanor x

Yes I'd expect so given the age difference as well.

This Covent Garden theme makes me "hmmm" about another member's line as well you know. All their Vales were Covent Garden Porters too. That's by the by for now though!

How'd you find that?