Genealogy Chat

Thanks Jill,

When i was younger i remember an elderly relative said to me if it never happened in my generation, i wish she was still here today i think she be in shock with what i found out about the family lol.

I had all sorts going in my head about this one did she have an affair and gave her daughter away, and other things.

Oh well one day i hopefully get to the bottom of this.

Thanks again.

Kind Regards Zena

They might not have been married and mother might have lied.

My grandmother used her "married" name when registering my father's birth in 1919. My grandfather's first wife (conveniently?) died in April 1922 and my grandparents married in July 1922. I expect if first wife had lived a few years longer the marriage would have been later still!

Alternatively, if the father turns up to register the birth his name can go on the certificate. Not sure what this would mean if the woman was married to someone else at the time - assume she would have denied existence of first husband?

Don't you just love them? Think most of my lot went to their graves laughing themselves silly about the tangled webs they'd woven!

Jill

Hi Kathryn,

Thank you so much for your imput, i am struggling with this one.

I really dont know how William was on the birth cert as you say they was not married, i have had birth certs before when mothers were not married but in fathers name just a line.

Thank you for finding William in the census for me.

Kind Regards Zena

This looks like William Burman in 1871:

Name: William Burman
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Aston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
Town: Duddeston Cum Nechells
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Duddeston

How did Ellen manage to get his name on her birth cert if her parents weren't married??

In 1841:

Name: William Burman
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Gender: Male
Where born: Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Birmingham
Hundred: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St Peter

Household Members: Name Age
Maria Angliss 15
Caroline Burman 20
William Burman 15
Charles Rowland 2
Elizabeth Rowland 30
Isabella Rowland 4
Thomas Rowland 30
Patience Taylor 20

And in 1891:

Name: William Burman
Age: 62
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Aston
Ecclesiastical parish: Saltley
Town: Saltley
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

He seems never to have married.

Do you suppose Caroline *was* married when Ellen was born, just not to William Burman? I'm not sure how such things were handled at the time; if the woman's husband was alive, I think the birth had to be registered with him as father, because of the presumption of legitimacy (and absence of DNA testing!).

I think this is the missing link -- you have Ellen born 1854, and you have Caroline Cope in the 1871. So in 1861, you have:

Name: Ellen Leek
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Female
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 9

Household schedule number: 67 1/2
Household Members: Name Age
Caroline Cope 33
George Francis Cope 34
Ellen Leek 8


In 1871:

Name: Ellen Cope = Ellen Leek, I'd say
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Geo Thomas
Mother's Name: Caroline
Gender: Female
Where born: Bham, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Aston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Duddeston Cum Nechells
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Duddeston
ED, institution, or vessel: 24

Household schedule number: 72
Household Members: Name Age
Caroline Cope 44
Ellen Cope 18
Geo Thomas Cope 45 (it actually says Geo Francis)
Alfred Harris 45
Alfred Harris 4 months
Ellen Harris 33
Thora Harris 1 5 months
Alexander Thompson 69

Here's a George Francis Cope marriage:

Name: George Francis Cope
Year of Registration: 1848
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Birmingham (1837-1924)
County: Warwickshire
Volume: 16
Page: 490

But the only Caroline on the page is Caroline Turner.

There's a timely Caroline Leek marriage:

Name: Caroline Leek
Year of Registration: 1856
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Birmingham (1837-1924)
County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d
Page: _7

The entry is a mess. It could be 17 or 47. The list for page 47 is indeed missing a woman:

Samuel Hodgetts
William Hudson

There's a Caroline by marriage to Joseph Leek in Birmingham in 1851, but she's accounted for in 1861. Not finding your Caroline as Leek in 1851 or 1861 I'm afraid!

Hi,

I have recieved the birth cert for Ellen Leek born 12th Nov 1854, it gives parents names as father William Burman a rulermaker and Caroline Leek.

I have found William in the 1851 census living with his uncle, but can not see him in the 1861 census.

I cant seem to pin point Caroline Leek in the census.

Just want to thank everyone who helped me out as i would not have sent for the cert without getting her marriage first, at least the fathers name is on it and not a line put in it just need to dig further.

Once again thank you.

Kind Regards Zena

Hi Mellie,

Your not draft at all im always learning and i have been doing my tree for 7 years and i always ask questions that seem stupid to me but if we dont ask we never would learn lol.

Zena

oh i see, i told you i was a draft blonde lol

Thanks for your help Heather much appreciated.

Mellie i cant find George and Ellen Leek marriage but if George married before it would give me George fathers name.

A the 1st child was born in 1874 and the next 1878 it is a possibilty he could of married before i need to get the 1st childs birth cert to prove or disprove it.

Hope that makes sense.

Regards Zena

?????????
sorry confused (daft blonde)lol
how would goerge marring twice change ellens surname? surley georges name would stay the same
mellie

Oh poor zena, what a quandry. Get the birth cert and see if it helps :) May be George was married twice?

The Ellen Leek in 1892 married Thomas Mossom.

Rose

Thank you Rose,

I will order the birth cert for Ellen Leek in 1854 see if that will give any clues to why Ellen was living with the Cope family in th 1861 and 71 census.

Thank you all for helping me out on this.

Kind Regards Zena

Ellen Elizabeth Leek married Richard Parsons in 1872. There's a death the following year for Ellen Elizabeth Parsons age 20.

Rose

Hi Heather,

That Ellen in the 1861 census is the one i thought she was, and in the 1871 census she is using the surname Cope.

I think i will try the 1854 birth and get the cert, but without fathers name you will never be sure.

Thank you

Zena

Thank you Marrilyn for trying for me.

Heather yes you are right and a gap between Ellen and my gr gr grandmother Julia.

So i thought Ellen could of been married before, i think i might order Ellen's birth cert and take a gamble i already have Julia's and Esther birth, but clutching at straws anythink is worth a try.

Thank you all.

Zena

i thought you might be intersted
george roberts
ellen freeman
4th quarter 1874 birmingham 6d 50

Ellen Leek
Year of Registration: 1854
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Aston
County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d
Page: 234 (click to see others on page)

Name: Ellen Elizabeth Leek
Year of Registration: 1852
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Birmingham (1837-1924)
County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d
Page: 162 (click to see others on page)

The girl born July/sept 1852 would be 8 years old in 1861when the census was taken. But that may be her marriage above with no groom shown.

What do you reckon?

Name: Ellen Leek
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Female
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Civil Parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 67 1/2
Household Members: Name Age
Caroline Cope 33
George Francis Cope 34
Ellen Leek 8

They were keen on the name Ellen/Helena werent they!

1881

Ellen Roberts 28
Ellen Roberts 7
George Roberts 28
Helena Roberts 1
Julia Roberts 3