Genealogy Chat

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I have just seen the transcription of what I ‘think’ is my 5xgr-grandparent’s marriage. It was a Roman Catholic marriage and after the names of the Bride & Groom was this paragraph : “matrimonium nunc instar coram parocho protestante juxta edictum parliamenti magnae Britanniae invitis Catholicis et sacramentum postea confertur a sacerdote” Some of it’s pretty obvious, and assume it’s something to do with a Catholic marrying a Protestant. But could someone translate the whole thing for me, please?? Thank you Debbie

Classical Latin wasn't quite like this! Can I ask if this was pre or post 1837? It sounds as if they married in a protestant church because they had to, but were blessed in a catholic church. Is that feasible? Brenda ps could second word be nunc, not nuric?

and edictum, not ealictum?

If no one can help try this site. (www.)nd(.)edu/~archives/latgramm.htm Its a site for Latin words look up

Yes I did, but at the moment all that springs to mind is Amo, Amas, Amat, Amamis, Amatis, Amant .... I think! I saw some Latin translations somewhere recently ... I'll try and have a think where it might have been. Mandy :)

Hi Brenda, The marriage took place in 1771. Yes it should say edictum, but I can't correct it!!?? Every time I try I get a message saying "you are not allowed to do this" The site is really getting on my nreves tonight! The second word could well be nunc, it wasn't very clear. The actual wording in the transcripts said - Marriages, so I presumed that it was exactly that. Hadn't thought about a blessing, but there doesn't appear to be any other record of this marriage in another church/parish. You seem fairly in touch with this, Brenda, presuming perhaps that you are Roman Catholic, rather than fluent in Latin, is it usual for the parents not to be named in RC christenings!! Debbie

And what was it about Marcus ont omnibus? The only bit I can make out is the law of Great Britain.

my latin is self taught but from what I can make out its on about Obaying the Protestent laws of great britain and thous of the church of rome But thats a vrey rough translation

Thanks Mandy, If you find it - let me know, please. Peter, Off to have a look at that now. Debbie

In 1771, unless you were a jew or a quaker, you could only be legally married according to the rites of the Church of England. So I think that there must be a second marriage somewhere, to make the union legally binding. Brenda

Hi Brenda, Think you might be right! Just trying to translate this using the site Peter recommended. First three words mean: Today/Present Likeness/Counterpart Plant/It's seed. Will let you know the finished result, but 'likeness' seems to imply not 'the real thing' ie marriage ceremony. Debbie

I would think it is nunc (=now). My parents had a catholic "wedding" shortly before my birth after a CofE one the previous year. Just a handwritten note on the back of my mum's baptism certificate. Ipsa contraxit matrimonium cum Ronaldo Galfredo (Geoffrey) in ecclesia Sancti Hugonis apud Lincolnium die 20 Januarii 1947.

Looking at my medieval word list, which always lets me down at crucial moments : Now **** in the presence of province/diocese/parish ***** edict parliament GB unwillingly Catholic and oath after ***** ***** priest I can't remember declensions, tenses etc, though there doesn't appear to be a subject in the sentence anywhere. If this is a catholic register kept in England, the same wording should presumably used for every marriage. Brenda

Hi Brenda & Geoff, I can't quite make it make sense either, but got person responsible to bear witness to To proclaim or declare the law of Britain - reluctant or unwilling. Does this mean the priest was unwilling to marry them??!! Oh no, not another scandal! Thanks everyone for your help. Debbie

Deborah There is a similarity of church and classical latin but there is also a difference. This, as most people are saying, sounds like a marriage in a protestant church with catholic leanings. Remember that Britain was, and still is a Protestant country since Henry 8 and it was not until the Catholic Emancipation Act of 1829 that catholics had any say in what they wished to believe. Up until then most people suppressed their catholic leanings and most just married in Cof E churches. You always had some who wanted to keep their faith and had to do this surreptitiously, hence the term recusant that was used back in the 1600 and 1700's. Sacerdote is to do with being blessed and conferred might be the word before this? Ealictum I would say was dictum meaning said? Something to do with the Parliament of Great Britain. Let us know when you get the correct translation. Janet

Hi Janet, Thanks for that. Still can't quite get all the words to actually mean something. Using Peter's site a couple of the words come up with 'no meaning'. Will persevere a bit longer. Debbie

The last bit (from sacramentum onwards) means that mass was later celebrated by a/the priest.

Last attempt before I turn in. Some of us have work tomorrow.... :-( The gist is something about the marriage being valid in the eyes of the Protestant church in accordance with the ruling of the parliament of Great Britain but without Catholic consent/approval and communion being given later by a priest.

I reckon it is (give or take a bit of grammar - which could completely screw the whole thing, of course! - and not very elegantly) A form of marriage now in the presence of the protestant parish according to the edict of parliament of Great Britain for unwilling catholics and the sacrament was conferred afterwards by the priest. does that seem likely? Christine