Genealogy Chat

Crista - I have them - although I don't know where Thomas Aver came from. Elizabeth Barker is another problem - she appears on the 1881 as Elizabeth Krafft - but is the same person as she is a deaf mute on both. This family takes me back to a Charles Krafft born in Harwich, Essex in either 1814 or 1820 (census rounding)! My own Kraffts come from a Gustav Adolph (german?) who married in 1856, although there is an Elizabeth Krafft who married in the same church in 1805. I don't yet know if I can connect them, but I am collecting jigsaw peices. From the way Adelaide moved from place to place I suspect there is a genetic connection!! I have a James Richard who has taken an incredible amount of tracking. Also they tend to become Crofts and then change back. Still, I've only been doing this for 30 odd years..... Now to find Thomas Aver..... Peter Sunny Auckland, New Zealand.

Peter, This is probably Adelaide's family in 1871: Thomas Aver 30 St Pancras, Middlesex, England Nephew Camberwell London Elizabeth Barker 64 Harwich, Essex, England Aunt Camberwell London Alfred Jas Krafft 18 Newington, Surrey, England Son Camberwell London Charles Frdk Krafft 57 Harwich, Essex, England G Camberwell London Constance Krafft 4 months Camberwell, Surrey, England Daughter Camberwell London Emily Gert Krafft 12 Deptford, Kent, England Daughter Camberwell London Ernest Hy Krafft 3 Camberwell, Surrey, England Son Camberwell London Florence Opt Krafft 9 Camberwell, Surrey, England Daughter Camberwell London Don't know if that ties in with any of your family. Crista

If they where devious enough she and Jr could of used Jo Sr Wed cert as there own. Who really looks at them onces there issued?

...and we mustn't forget Uncle Arthur - stepson in 1881, Husband Joseph's brother in 1891, Uncle 1902 (just found him on the next page of the 1891!) In 1891 the sons are Joseph A and Harry J. The plot thickens

There is a strong sugestion that there might of been some hanky panky going on. She marries Sr for what ever reson falls for Jr. After Sr departs this world, every one moves and she and Jr set up as Mr & Mrs ???

To make it more confusing, on the 1901 census, Joseph Arthur is know as Arthur and Harry Joseph is known as Joseph. Could be she never actually married Joseph jr but they said they were on the census. Crista

At the risk of butting in on this conversation, I though that a woman is (or possibly was, it may have changed) not allowed to marry her husband's son. So if she married Joseph senior, she could not then marry Joseph junior (assuming I have understood this complicated story right, which at this time of night is questionable). Also, I would argue with the statement that if there was already one son called Joseph she would not call her son Joseph. Some families seem to do it all the time, but with a different middle name by which the child was actually known. Why can't life be more simple? Tina

ahah..but if she is married to the 75 year old Joseph, who already has a son named Joseph, then she is hardly likely to name another son Joseph. Therefore Joseph is the son of the younger Joseph. (I enjoyed writing that!) Peter

Here's the other: Name: Burgess, Joseph Arthur C Record Type: Births Quarter: September Year: 1878 District: Blean County: Kent Volume: 2a Page: 795 This might be his marriage: Name: Burgess, Joseph Arthur C Record Type: Marriages Quarter: December Year: 1901 District: Basingstoke County: Berkshire Hampshire Volume: 2c Page: 493 Crista

Hi Peter, The problem is, obtaining the birth certs for the 2 sons won't help because both of the fathers will be Joseph and you won't know which Joseph. Here's one of them: Name: Burgess, Harry Joseph T Record Type: Births Quarter: March Year: 1883 District: Brentford County: Middlesex Volume: 3a Page: 98 Crista

Thanks for this - will now sit back and see where I need certs to confirm - this is fun!!!(Crista - don't you ever sleep????????). In 1901 she has two sons - I think I need to fit them into the picture. Peter

Here's Arthur: ARTHUR AUGUSTUS BURGESS Birth: 26 JUL 1848 Christening: 01 NOV 1848 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London, England Parents: Father: JOSEPH BURGESS Family Mother: ELIZABETH Crista

Peter, I might be wrong but that's the way it looks. Finding a death for Elizabeth might help prove it. This might be Joseph jr. JOSEPH THORNE BURGESS Birth: 20 MAY 1834 Christening: 03 OCT 1834 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London, England Parents: Father: JOSEPH BURGESS Family Mother: ELIZABETH Crista

there are 2 marriages of possible Burgess M Burgess for that time. Neither for Adelaide. Marriages Jun 1888 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Burgess Annie Pancras 1b 251 Burgess Joseph Pancras 1b 251 FARRELL Charles Pancras 1b 251 FRYER Louisa Pancras 1b 251 Marriages Mar 1891 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Burgess Georgiana Sheffield 9c 755 Burgess Joseph Sheffield 9c 755 Crump Sarah Ellen Sheffield 9c 755 Neal George Sheffield 9c 755

Thanks Crista - looks like I need her marriage certificate...can only find one date so far! You would think that, with a distinctive maiden name like Krafft the family would be easy to sort out (except for the spelling variants!!!!!). I am not even sure that Adelaide is related to me - I have a major problem between 1800 and 1856 in essex - so am trying to work all lines backwards to see if they meet. So much to do, so little time!! Am off to bed (10pm in New Zealand) so will look in the morning for the 100+ replies and all my problems solved..Peter (LOL)

Peter, She married Joseph senior then Joseph junior. Crista

I still have aproblem with the stepson in 1881 - somewhere I'm missing something........... peter in nz

In 1881 I think Joseph is also in Lambeth. He's listed as a pawn broker and married but his wife isn't there. Here's his death: Deaths Dec 1897 Burgess Joseph 63 Westbourne 2b 253 Crista

It does look like she married another Joseph Burgess. Can't see the marriage though. Looks like he's 56? Crista

But then have a look at 1891, when she appears to have married the son (in Croydon) and by 1901 she is a widow again in Racton, Sussex.