Genealogy Chat

Hi everyone This may be a silly question but does anyone know why the word 'born' would be written after a baptism entry? I'm referring to entries between 1653 and 1660. Entries were not made in this way either before or after this period on the parish records I am looking at. I'm wondering if maybe those entries without the word 'born' were actually older children or adults rather than babies. Has anyone else come across this? Any advice appreciated. Thanks Kate

During the commonwealth period, it was births, rather than baptisms that should have been recorded. It's too complex a subject to summarise briefly, suffice it to say that you are extremely lucky to find records surviving from this period.

Kate I have sometimes seen baptisms that have a birth date next to them, in cases where the person being baptised was not a baby - ie a child or adult. nell

Thank you Brenda Will do a bit of research into that time period now. I hadn't realised that was the case. Kate

Hi Nell Yes, I've seen that sometimes too but with these entries there aren't any dates alongside. Unless as Brenda says the dates under baptism are actually birth dates. As an example I have 6 baptisms listed for 1660, 5 of which say 'born' after them but one does not. I'll probably never be sure of the reason but curiousity makes me want to dig further. I get frustrated when I don't know the answer to something :) Kate x

Kate I have a vague feeling it was something to do with a tax on births which was levied during the Commonwealth years, I have a book somewhere and will look it up. You are indeed lucky to have seen this Register, most of the Commonwealth records were destroyed by the Established Church, although it quickly realised that it had wiped out seven years of records and hastily tried to reconstruct them, but those are done from memory so not particularly accurate! However, with the perversity which makes the British people unique, Parish Priests who had previously been very lax in their Register keeping, as soon as they were forbidden to keep such registers, went to enormous lengths to ensure that they kept detailed registers and that these registers were passed on to the Church Authorities! Long live the AWKWARD Squad! Marjorie

Did a bit of digging after Brendas reply and found this on a website: 1653 During the Interregnum (1649-1660), the responsibility for registration was transferred to an elected Parish Register (a term used to describe a person whom we would now call a Registrar). A one-shilling registration fee was imposed and this discouraged many people from registering at all. 1660 Along with the monarchy, the old system of church registration was restored, but the laws governing registration were not stringently enforced. As a result, many even, especially marriages, went unrecorded.However, many children who had not been baptised during the Commonwealth period because of the cost were baptised after the Restoration, when the practice was again carried out free of charge.The family historian should not assume that all baptisms, which took place during the early years of the Restoration, were of the newborn babies. Some were several years old. Kate x PS: Feel better now I have some understanding :)

Hi Marjorie Our messages crossed :) Yes, I do feel lucky to have these records but the credit should go to Bedfordshire Archives who have transcribed all of their earliest records (up to 1812) so that people like me can buy them :) Were the seven years you referred to about 1648? There is an entry in my transcripts which reads: (Leaf from register cut out contained entries covering period from 1st Feb 1648 to 7th Jan 1653 with following note "June the 22d 1721 What the Knaves have Cut out from this Leafe is inknown to Wm Hyde Rectr".) Isn't that facinating? Kate

Kate This is really interesting. I didn't know any of this. On one of my visits to my local Records Office I was allowed to use a parish register dating back to 1558. Not that I could read the earlier entries as they were in Latin! I was surprised I was allowed to handle it though and it hadn't been microfiched. Jeanette x

This site is a real education isn't it Jeanette. I didn't know any of this either until 2nite. The site I got my info from was: (Tried to put the address here but it vanished,must be a no-no - If you want it pm me and I'll send you the addie) Its not a site I've been to before but I'm going back for a longer look tomorrow :) You were lucky to be allowed to handle a register as old as that. I think if they had filmed or fiched it they perhaps wouldn't have let you touch the original. Wish I'd taken history at school now ;) Kate x

Kate This Commonwealth Period is very interesting as there is now quite a number of really good books on the market. It would appear that many counties do not have the records for this period, but what I have found interesting is that counties involved in the Civil Wars have managed to keep the most records, being Bedfordshire, Northants and Huntingdonshire where Oliver Cromwell came from! I was recently given sight of a 1580 book in the Hunts Record Office, brought to me on a cushion and told that this was their most valuable and oldest book, but I was not allowed to touch the book as that was done by the archivist but in this register I found very clearly written, the marriage of my earliest grt by 7 Grandparents marriage. The date was 1655 and was couched in very different terms in that it talked aboout the marriage after so many days at Oundle Market Place, rather than the normal consecutive Banns. I felt it was quite unique. I had not got my Digital Camera with me so just had to copy the entry but have been told that I can go back to photograph when I wish to. I will do so when I can. As my lot now seem to disappear from about 1610/1620 possibly into Bedfordshire but might be Leicestershire, I was interested in your purchase of old parish records on CD. I understand that the Parish Records in Beds go back to about 1570? Up to now I have only been interested in Northants and Hunts but maybe you can help me as to where you were able to get your old parish records. I have not yet joined Beds FHS as I am unsure where they have come from. Janet

I have found the book! From 1653 marriages were no longer allowed to take place in Church but were to take place in front of a Jusrice of the Peace, after banns called three times "in the Market Place". Not all JPs were co-operative and therefore many couples had to travel quite a distance to find a JP willing to marry them. Old habits die hard and many marryig couples didnt feel this was a true marriage and often asked a deposed priest to marry them secretly as well - forbidden by law - by the rites of the Church. The Priest often recorded this event - again totally illegally, and some of these records did survive. Births and Deaths between 1653-1660: only the Birth was recorded, however, again, this wasnt enough for some people and they secretly had their children baptised. It says in my book that if the event appears to have been a religious one, i.e. by a priest, then you are probably looking at a surviving illegal register and not the register kept by the Parish Register (a person, not a book, as Nell points out, above). In the backlash, after 1660, the restored Clergy went round trying to winkle out the Puritans, and the Bishops insisted that anyone who had been married by a Justice of the Peace during the previous seven years, must be remarried in Church and their children be baptised, otherwise the children would be entered in the (new) PR as bastards. This, incidentally, gives rise to the much-misunderstood term "alias". "Alias" was the Clergys way of contemptuously dismissing a marriage which had not taken place in Church - in the eyes of the Church it was not a marriage. And therefore the same with the children. So, for instance, Fred Jones alias Brown, does not mean he used two names, it just meant that the Church did not recognise the "event" which changed his mothers name from Jones to Brown. This went on well into the mid-1800s, particularly in court proceedings etc.- non-conformist marriages were simply not recognised by law, thus making all the children bastards. Sorry to go on so long but I find it fascinating! And I did History at school, I have an A-level, but we never covered any of this! Marjorie

Marjorie Thank you for all that information. I was looking at my Civil War book yesterday and finding similar. Interesting thread. I also did A Level History a few moons ago but studied mainly 19 and 20 century. I remember my early years at school found me struggling as to what Star Chambers and the Civil Wars were all about and never did quite get the hang of the period. Always interested in Local History which seemed easier to understand. I had to wait until I was really into Family History and finding that I actually had an ancestor that I could name who would have been there at the time of the Civil War and then you suddenly want to bring it all alive again and understand what was behind it all and that is when the understanding comes. Oh that they could teach history at school through the Family Tree!! All those gems I would have picked up from my parents at the time instead of struggling now that they have gone. History Teachers please take note! Janet

Hi Janet I obtained my old parish record transcript directly from Bedfordshire Archives. It isn’t a CD though. You can buy either a typed transcript for the parish you are interested in or a set of microfiche, or both, which is what I did as I like to see the copy of the originals. Their details are: Bedfordshire and Luton Archives and Record Service Riverside Building County Hall Bedford MK42 9AP Tel: 01234 228833 or 228777 Email: [email protected] Web: http://www(.)bedfordshire(.)gov.uk/archive (remove the brackets) I found them extremely helpful and received my transcript only one day after ordering it (I ordered by phone using my credit card). You were really lucky to find your 7th g-grandfathers wedding, that really must be very rare. It hasn’t occurred to me to take my digital camera with me before. Do you find you get a good image with it? Totally agree with you about History at school. I really wish I’d taken it more seriously now J TTFN Kate

Hi Marjorie Thank you for all of that, I’m going to have to print this thread and store the info. I really had no idea about any of this. Do you think you could give me the name of the book and the author, I’d like to either get a copy or order if from the Library. I’m going to be reading my parish transcript with new eyes from now on. All of the above info ties in beautifully with my dates and gives new insight into how our ancestors lived. Thanks again Kate

Kate Thanks for the information as to where to obtain these Parish Records. I will look into it as I have about six possible Beds places that they might hail from. I also have a couple of sideliners that I know are in Beds so it could be interesting. It sounds as though Marjorie's book has the edge on the one I have so I shall be interested in the title as well. The one that I have on the Civil War is a modern book, but you may like to see if you can borrow this one as well. The title of mine is: "Civil War" The Wars of the Three Kingdoms 1638-1660 by Trevor Royle, first published in 2004 Little Brown Publisher. It is a big tome of a book and I am sure can be ordered through your local library. I was lucky to find my ancestor in such an old register and interestingly enough the reason I aked to see the original register was because the transcript had what I thought was the wrong place from where the couple came from. The original copy also showed the error and it sparked a conversation between the 2 Archivists who were equally mystified. There was no transcript error because it weas in beautiful handwriting which was why I wanted a photograph. They refused me a photocopy as the light would damage their precious old book, but agreed I could have used the Digital Camera without flash, but I had not got the camera with me!! Yes, I find that my digital camera is a great boon these days as I am allowed to photo all documents that are not normally allowed to be photocopied and that includes documents that are on parchment. So far I have photos of several 1730ish wills and apprenticeship records and settlement records as well as saving time taking photos of sheets of transcribed names of interest in the Typewritten books at the CRO in Northants. This has saved me hours of copying by hand at the CRO and I can put people into families when I get home. Obviously these can be photocopied, although you often have to wait or I often miss their deadline and if I want several pages it can become expensive. Checking the original register for something already known then becomes so much easier. I do have a 4 million pixel camera and find that the photos are very good. I can also check at the office that I have done it correctly and redo or take several photos. I must say it has saved me hours of work and would not be without it now. Most places allow you to use Digital Cameras and I have used mine in the National Archives at Kew as well as places in Ireland. You must turn off the flash so you must have good lighting available, but CRO's seem to accommodate this good lighting, at least the ones I have been to so far have been more than helpful. You have to sign a form to say you will not sell on material etc but it is all for my own use so I am happy to sign. Thanks once again for your info, as well as starting a very interesting thread and good luck with your Research. I have also printed info off to keep. Janet

Hello again Janet Think I’m going to start taking my camera with me from now on. As you say the hours saved on transcribing alone will make it worth it. Thanks for the book title I’ll pop to my local Library at the weekend and put an order in. This thread has been interesting hasn’t it? Who would have thought that what I thought might be a silly question could open up such an interesting topic. I forgot to say that the transcribed Bedfordshires parish record series runs up to 1812. Records after that haven’t been transcribed and are kept on microfiche at the archives. I’m not sure if the fiche after 1812 are available to buy, it’s on my list of jobs to do to ring and ask them :) Good luck with your digging and in finding your Bedfordshire people. TTFN KaTE

Hi Everyone The title of the book from which I got the above information is: Further Steps in Family History - guided by Eve McLaughlin. It is published by Countryside Books and the ISBN No is 1 85306 062 3. It was published in 1990 and as the title suggests, its not for beginners! However, it has been very useful and it is easily readable and quite funny too, with lots of information about things I knew nothing about! A word about Digital Cameras: I know that no-one on this site would be so rude as to use one without asking permission first! but...I often work in my local LDS centre and it infuriates me when people furtively whip out a camera to take a photo of the PR page they happen to be looking at, without asking if this is OK. The LDS only charge 10p for a photocopy of a page and given that their facilities are free to anyone, I think this is the height of mean rudeness! I know you are talking about a different situation entirely, where a document CANNOT be photocopied and the Archivist has given permission for you to photograph it, but I just thought I would add this in the hope of embarrassing all those cheap-skate freeloaders in the LDS centres! Happy hunting! Marjorie.

Marjorie I understand that Digital Cameras can only be used with permission from the various Record Offices. I have had to sign forms for each office I have used and so those that just whip out their cameras are breaking the law on this use. They are very strict at TNA where I signed a special form but having once signed I do not have to keep asking permission. Same with Northants CRO I had to ask and sign a form. Hunts CRO said I could photograph next time I am in the area. The use of Digital Cameras is creeping in all CRO these days but yes I would urge people not to try to do this surreptitiously especially where copies are only 10p a time but some of copies from Kew can be quite expensive. Thanks for the name of your book. I shall be interested in trying to obtain. Kate Thanks for the extra info on Beds. I think I am going to have to get my head around that county A very satisfying thread so thanks once again to everybody. Janet

They say you learn something new everyday and today I have learnt a lot. I didn't know about the Commonwealth etc. If I was told it at school many moons ago, I soon forgot it. Now that does help, I wondered why there didn't seem to be any records around the 1650's, just though they had disappeared for some reason and also why there seems to be the same family a bit later. Will have to go to the local FHC again and check on the documents. Thanks every one for your very useful information. The other bit about the camera in Kew, I will have to take mine next time. Did you have to ask if you could take pictures first. Irene