Genealogy Chat

A while back I asked for help finding my ggrandparents marriage - John Brown (born in Westminster to Mary Gillies(born in Scotland shown as 34 & 32 respectively on 1851 census for Westminster). I had trolled ttrough any poss. marriage in Scotland - To no avail. Someone very kindly pointed me in the direction of a marriage in 1839 @ Lambeth (the only seeming match, Gillies being quite an unusual name). I sent for the certificate - great. However real problem is that John Brown is shown as a dairyman on both 1851 & 1861 censuses, yet on that wedding certificate the John Brown is shown as a lacemaker (the son of a lacemaker!) is such a life change really likely. Someone has suggested that the lace trade went through a problem at that time. Has anyone got any suggestions please& apart from John's birth cert which I can't find either, where do I go from here. Many thanks - k.a. Jenny

Hi Muriel You won't find a birth cert for John as he was born before civil registration started. Jeanette x

HI Jeannette No, I realise that I really meant a listing - I've searched for the name & approximate time. I suppose I will need to go to westminster archives, can't find anything on their website. J

Muriel, Would they be on the 1871 census? It might be that the wedding cert is incorrect, and that he was not a lacemaker, just the son of a lacemaker? Ian

Hi Ian They will be, but I haven't found them yet. they were at 22 Mercer St in 1851; but I know they weren't there in '61, I think they were in Hart St in '71, no idea where that is! I don't suppose they moved out of London Thanks Jenny

I would imagine that the lace trace went through a bad patch when machine made lace was introduced. Perhaps it was around this time?

Thanks Angela I've googled on that & it looks like it died nearer the end of the century, but it also said that households made lace to supplement their income from other sources, so it might be possible. I really am desperate to track them down -JOHN BROWN or the right one, is not an easy name to find !!!! Jenny

Hi Muriel Could this possibly be your John and Mary in 1871? You didn't mention any children but it seems to be the only John with a Scottish wife Mary (and yes, see what you mean about a lot of John Brown's!) Clara Brown 16 London, England Daughter St Paul Covent Garden London Elizabeth Brown 25 London, England Daughter St Paul Covent Garden London John Brown 55 London, England Head St Paul Covent Garden London Mary Brown 53 Scotland Wife St Paul Covent Garden London Julia Mann 55 Ireland Lodger St Paul Covent Garden London They live at 31 Hart Street and John is a Dairyman. I've saved the image anyway, if they look like being yours let me have your e mail addie and I'll send it across Lou

Many thanks Lou, have sent you an email directly. Still can't find a link between lace maker & dairyman!!!. have tried to look on the Trades Directories. I never seem to be able to get them to open on the page I want. Does anyone else have this prob? Jenny

Hi Jenny Image on the way...do you think he just had a job change in the 11 years between the marriage and the 1851 census? A drastic one, I agree, but not totally impossible! Maybe there was more money in being a dairyman or he went into lacemaking to follow his father. I have several ancestors who appear in 1851 and 1861 doing exactly the same as their father's but then are doing other things in later years Lou

I think such a 'life change' is quite possible. In 1839 he was only a very young man. If his parent(s) were lace makers then perhaps that's how he was brought up. There was probably more money in being a dairyman - which in London presumably meant delivering milk. People would have come out to collect it from him in jugs. I think dairyman would not mean producing milk - I have seen many people on censuses described as 'cowkeeper' in large towns. Anne

Oh snap, Ann! Lou

Many thanks again In 1851 he's listed as a dairyman, employing 1 woman (interestingly I've been to see Mercer St & where he would have lived is now the National Opera!!!!!) When I was teaching there was picture we all referred to of a Cowkeeper in a city, where the ground floor was kept as a housing for a cow & I'd always assumed this would be the same, people bringing jugs to have their milk in. Is there any way I could find him on 1841 census - he's not in Mercer St then? I just have to get to the bottom of this. Jenny

Hi Muriel This probably doesn't help but my husband's 3xg-granddad was a baker on most of his children's marriage certs and a coal dealer or carrier on census records. Luckily he was the only one of his name living in the area. I've also found a cordwainer who became a publican and a glover who became a publican too. So yes, a change of occupation is possible. Heather

Oh, yes it does help, in that drastic changes obviously did happen. I just need to find him on the 1841, but with a name like that I don't know where to start!!! The other thing that might have helped is residence at time of marriage on the cert. I can't read it. It looks like Lambeth then -Hulk; Hack. except there is a capital H elsewhere on the cert. & it's not the same! I know nothing about Lambeth then or now Jenny

Could the address be Lambeth Walk?

I suppose it could be - the capital that isn't clear, but I thought that was just a dance! Jenny

Many thanks Yvonne, have looked, but most seem to post date the 1839 date I need, will have to find a contemporary map with streets marked if poss. I've found one, no obvious landmarks that would fit the image on the cert., but the streets aren't named. Back to the drawing board. Jenny

Muriel Re: Lambeth Walk. I know what you mean! I was surprised to find one of my ancestors living in Lambeth Walk in 1891. Like you, I thought it was just a 'song & dance'!! It's definitely a street in Lambeth, though. If you google Lambeth Landmarks, there's an old photo of the place...plus lots of other information about Lambeth. Well worth a look (if you haven't already come across it). Hope this helps. Natalie

Great, thanks Natalie While I'm on - Lou has come up with a possibility for Mary Gillies birth - to recap this is my ggrandmother that I am really trying to track down - SO IS THERE ANY WONDERFUL PERSON OUT THERE who could possibly look up the following for me in the Canongate Edinburgh Parish records for about 1817-19 a Mary Gillies born to a Gilbert Gillies & a Helen McLaren. Lou has found a Peter & a Bilbert born to them post 1819 when her ref. records start. IN ANTICIPATION Jenny