Genealogy Chat

See below in a minute.

Lots of us on this site have ancestors who either never married at all, or only married after the birth of one or more children. In the course of my research I have come across several reasons which might explain this mystery. The first is obvious - they were already married to someone else. Another reason is: If they were apprentices, or Ag labs or a Servant of some sort, they had to get permission from their 'Master'. An Apprentice would almost certainly be refused permission and anyway would not earn enough to support a wife and family. An Ag lab, living with his parents and working for the man who owned the tied cottage, would also have to ask permission, which would be granted, or not, at the whim of the employer. Add to that, a junior aglab again wouldnt earn enough to support a family and would anyway have to wait for a cottage to fall vacant.Many 'country' families were quite happy to put up with their unmarried daughters and several children until the couple could marry.The cost of a Wedding licence was also a consideration. House, or Estate, Servants were frequently refused permission to marry - married servants werent as loyal as unmarried ones and would probably start being a nuisance by having babies and wanting promotion/more pay.Employers were quite ruthless about this, saw it as a waste of good training, the servants feelings were not to be considered. Finally, in my family, if no-one else's, where a small farm was involved, the 'Heir' to the Farm did not marry until SEVERAL local young women had borne him daughters - he married the first one to give him a son! Marjorie

Marjorie That's really interesting reading. Think I'll print that off for future reference as I've come across a few Ag Labs in mine Lou

How interesting Marjorie - I didn't realise that they had to have permission from their employers! I had to laugh though as one of mine actually married his servant once he was widowed - I suppose that happened a lot though! Another 2 of my family hadn't married when they were in their 30's which I thought was odd but when I read the last column on the census - one was a cripple and one was an imbecile so that explained those two. The more you search the more you learn and you get quite obsessed with finding someone. It's almost like being a detective - I love the mystery unravelling as you dig deeper - no wonder it's so addictive! Debby

Its not just the working class that didn't marry before children came along. The Gentry made a habit of not marrying until proof had been obtained that the woman would be able to provide an heir.

My gt gt uncle married at the advanced age of 69 - I'm not sure what he was waiting for! nell

Nell Perhaps he was waiting for Miss Right but decided to settle for Miss Alright instead? I did a double-take at one of mine - she married, for the FIRST TIME at age 76, her new hubby was 81! She was the last living of a family of 13 children, so perhaps she married for company? It must have suited her though - she died aged 99. Marjorie

Marjorie I'm quite shocked at how many of mine remarried shortly after losing their first wife - would that be because they had children to bring up do you think? My gg grandad remarried in his sixties (can't be bothered to rummage through my paperwork for his age - I'm having a night off!) - what was that all about? Debby

Thanks Marjorie That was really interesting. I'm going to print it too. Many of my ancestors were ag labourers and I was surprised at the number of unwed Mum's. Now I understand a little why that might have been. Cheers Kate PS: Just realised I never thanked you for the title of the book we were talking about on the Commonwealth Thread. Sorry, about that and thanks, I'm going to order it from the Library. :)

Bearing in mind there was no such thing as Social Security in those days any man widowed and left with small children would need someone to look after them, And, as he probably already had a home set up he would be a good catch. Another reason why many had children before marriage was because the children were their Insurance and Pension Providers. It was no use marrying a woman and then finding out she was barren.

My G grandad married aged 59 - by then he had 9 children by my g Grandmother. This was because he had to wait until his first wife died. Family rumour says she was in an asylum, and you couldn't divorce spouses who were incarcerated. I have found no evidence of this and believe it was just too expensive to divorce!! maggie

It is not so very many years ago that any man working in a bank had to ask permission to marry from the bank manager. I remember my father telling me that. Can't imagine anyone putting up with that now!

Relatives of a friend married late in life, after the children had long flown the nest, solely to take advantage of Lloyd George's pension.

Marjorie, Interesting - have a couple of ancestors who fit the 'having lots of kids before they married' picture!! The one I am really upset with is great great grandma Elizabeth Greek who omitted to tell me who the father of her daughter Georgina was - leaves a great big hole on my tree!! Maggie

If they didn't marry, but lived together as man & wife.....would the woman use the man's name as her surname?? I can't find the marriage of my gt grandparents, but on the census they are down as head & wife. ???? So do you think they were married or pretending???

Hi Karen, I don't think you can be sure uness you have seen an entry in official records wether they are state or church, a frien of my mothers had always assimed her parents were married untill for some reason she had to produce her mothers marrige cerificate. There were seven children but they just had not bothered to tie the knot. This was the early 1900,s Clive

Our problem today is we have trouble putting our self in the same mind frame as our relles. Not haveing experianced the life stile of the time its hard to think what they would of done in any given situation. Do you think our ggg/children will look back and say things like Had to have a new Knee replacement. When then its a case of any bits can be regenarated or the shock of some of us older ones having to suffer Black and white TV (or even NO TV) And what will they make of the Hippy Cult, the list is endless. And it dose not have to be that far. what about now, I catch my self saying things to my kid about thing in the past, in a way my Dad said simaler thing to me. And I had trouble only a few years after the events thinking 'was it really like that'

Karen My great grandmother is shown in the 1891 census with her 2nd 'husband' and their 3 children but they didn't marry until the following year. I've no idea why this should be. They had both been married before, but her husband had died in 1876 and his wife in 1882, so why did they wait and why marry then in 1892, aged 44 and 54? Any suggestions anyone?

Marjorie: what year are you talking about re farm heir? Granpa Jim: how were the children their insurance? Might help me clear up a few 'holes' in my tree!!!

Pre tractors and the like (late 1800s) Haveing a large family was a cheep form of labour, so hences you get lots of ancestors, But as there was no Pentions NHS and welfair state, you needed some one to look after you in old age so the Children did it. Another advantage of a large family, It spred the cost in time, help and money. and as the death rate was quite high it also ment you could lose some and still have the help you needed. I have put this bluntly, but I dout if our relles would of put it that way or seen it eather. They just knew it made sence. And It also worked for other kinds of work whther it was a self owend/run buisness or if you worked for a factory ect.