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My 5xgrandparents are Edward and Mary Martin. Possible marriage for them in Thorpe le Soken, Essex, 11th May 1815. Edward Martin to Mary Keeble. I have them in 41, 51 and 61 living in TLS. Edward died sometime before the 71 census, Mary is living alone and dies in 1873. Thanks to some wonderful help I've now got the baptism details of all their children and you can imagine my excitement to discover they'd had one child inside civil reg so I sent off for his birth certificate to confirm if the marriage found was correct. The cert has now arrived and I'm gobsmacked! John Thomas Martin born 16th August 1840 at Landemere Landing, Thorpe le Soken (same address the family are at in 41 and 51), birth registered by mother Mary Martin formerly Keeble. Father....REUBEN Martin! Now I don't know what to do or think! Who is Reuben and why was he having a baby with Edward's wife 20+yrs before Edward died? Or is Edward actually Reuben and for some reason he's on the birth cert as Reuben but married as Edward and is listed on all the census and the children's baptisms as Edward? The father on John Thomas's baptism is Edward, as are the other 10 Martin children. Will shut up now...would appreciate any thoughts! Lou

I imagine you have seen the baptism for this last child too? Dad was Thomas on that?? Maybe Mary just got stressed about this new procedure of registration, 'Don't see why I have to do that - have never needed to before' etc etc. On the other hand, did you get the cert from the GRO or from the local office? If you got it from the GRO then you are not looking at a copy of the original record (because the entry will have been hand copied once to send it to the GRO). If you got it from the local office, you MAY not be looking at a photocopy of the original - maybe it is a typed copy or a handwritten copy, transcribed by the current day registrar. This is a roundabout way of saying that mistakes do occur!!! There have been a couple of threads on here lately where someone has got a GRO cert and later found that they already had the original in g-grannies paperwork only to find the details don't match exactly!!! It would be worth phoning the local office explaining that you have a copy of the cert (either from them or from the GRO) and that you can read it all except the first name of the father (so you are lying here, but it's the best way to get a result!!). Hopefully that will look up the original and tell you what that says. This worked for me the one time I have had to do it. In my case I had a marriage cert from the GRO with a fictitious witness on it!! Best Wishes Sarah PS sorry to ramble on...... PPS Maybe Reuben is Mary's father's name?? The registrar may have said, 'and the name of the father?' and she said, 'Reuben', coz that was her father lol, so he wrote Reuben Martin!! Could Mary sign her own name?

Hi Rebs Possible...that did cross my mind. I have what I thought was Edward's baptism and there's no middle name but now I'm wondering (panicking??) that I may have the wrong one. He gives his birthplace as Wix, Essex on all the census and I located a baptism at Wix for Edward Martin in 1791 which fitted perfectly (name/timeframe). I viewed the LDS film from 1785 to 1800 and didn't see a Reuben Martin or any such variation but if he was baptised somewhere else then I'm in trouble! Lou

Hi Sarah I was a little more blunt than that! I rang Essex RO when I got the cert yesterday and said that I was dubious about the father's name on the certificate, as I have John Thomas's baptism and the father's names don't match up. The lady was very helpful and rang me back to say that in the register, it definitely says Reuben for the father, occupation Mariner. Edward was a Mariner so it still all adds up in a bizarre kind of way! I've been doing some poking on IGI and I think I might have found John T's marriage entry. Be interesting to see what the father's name is on that! Lou

Cat Isn't this Genealogy game a wonderful thing, you think you have gat things off pat and then low and behold another thunderbolt passes your way. Still this is why we do it. Yes there is the possibility that Edward/Rueben had two names. Yes there is the possibility that they are two different people. Are they related? This is a good question. If Mary was married to Edward and she had a child by another person (Rueben) that name would not have appeared on the birth certificate, unless little white lies had been told. As far as I am aware the name of the father only appears on a birth certificate if he is married to the mother. Have you searched for the death of a Rueben to see if that helps. Did Edward change his name? None if this is not much help but I am just thinking out aloud as to what I would do in your situation. Victor

Hi again Sarah No, Mary signed both the marriage entry and the birth cert with her mark. Mary was illegitimate, haven't found a Reuben connection to her yet But Edward and Mary had a son, Reuben, so the name is within the family, although the eldest son is Edward. Reuben's quite a way down the pecking order! Lou

Hi Victor Your point about the death is actually a good one. Edward was definitely deceased by the 71 census as Mary is down as Widowed, but so far haven't been able to find a death for Edward. I know its trickier with no ages listed on the index till 1866 but I couldn't even find one that satisfied me with regards to the area Yes, he could have died elsewhere, but he'd lived all his 70+ years in the same little village, all the children bar 2 married and remained there. I didn't see him dying elsewhere. Looking for a death for Reuben Martin in that time frame would now be a smart move! Lou

I have a slightly similar problem with my number 1 brickwall. My 2*gt grandfather is William Henry Thomas PRIOR and he was born in Chelsea. On his marriage cert, his parents (it's a Scottish cert) are listed as George PRIOR - a coachman, and Mary Ann PRIOR (formerly HOWARD). On his birth cert though, his father is listed as Joseph PRIOR - a coachman, and his mother is Mary Ann Howard PRIOR (formerly DAWE)! I'm beginning to think that I need to try and find a baptism for William in parish records.

Hi Andy Good to know I'm not alone! Its so true when they say 'One question answered creates another 3!' Lou

This is where we need a time machine.....go back to the reg office and when she says, 'Reub....', burst through the door and say, 'What the *** are you talking about woman - who is this child's father????' I think it's a plain error (no help to you I know) - I get my own family mixed up and I only have three names to remember lol Good Luck ( I hope Thomas doesn't end up with a naughty brother called Reuben.....) Sarah

Thanks Sarah I know I have the right certificate cos the address matches up. I think I just wanted to see Father Edward Martin, mother Mary formerly Keeble, written on there so I would know for certain that I had the right marriage and am not going to follow the wrong lines back from Mary. Instead, I'm still unsure about the marriage (I had my doubts in the first place!) and I now have the added problem of Edward's baptism and whether I'm following the wrong line back from him I need a lie down! Lou

You said Thomas died between 1861 and 1871 - Would it be worth checking if he left a will? Mariners seem to be very keen on wills!! Sometimes a 'cover up' in the family is written for all to see in the will, but that's only if there is a cover up!! Are you beginning to wish they hadn't had a child after 1837?? Did you remember to close the curtains and put on soothing music when you had your lie down? Sarah

Again, I didn't think he'd left a Will. Lyla has checked the probate calendar for me. BUT, she was looking for Edward, maybe he left one under Reuben! This is part of the challenge and the fun though and I guess, without JT's birth cert, I would have assumed that the Edward Martin baptism was the right one. He is Edward on the census 41-61, on the baptism records of 11 children and on my 4xgrandmother's marriage certificate. At least this cert may have stopped me adopting the wrong line entirely back from Edward!

I am a wally - I see I have had the name Thomas imprinted on my brain all the way through when he was Edward/Reuben!! It was very polite of you not to say!! Sarah

SEE??? I never noticed! I knew who you were talking about so it never registered the name was wrong. This is how pickled my brain is with this family!

Oh, well that's alright then!! Could you sift through the 1841 looking for Reuben? (if he exists lol) Sarah

Hi babe !! As has been said before .... maybe Reuben is her Dad's name !!! seems possible to me ..and I have advised others of this in the past ! However, I also have to add, that she possibly called him Reuben as a pet name and just automatically gave that name at registration. I am 99% sure that you do have the correct cert and family ... just a confusion over the change in name! Been there, done that ! got the teeshirt (and 5 certificates that I didn't really want to purchase ! - just to proove to myself that I HAVE got the same chappy on all the census's) I have a William Allman on most of the census's ... except on 1851 he changed his name to Jeffrey ... I never did find his Birth Cert !! .... but then I couldn't find a second marriage cert for him .... except there was one under the name Jeffrey .. so I sent for that .. and low and behold he turns out that he IS the correct person. Good Luck ! Dancer x

Have just looked in The Times newspaper for 'Reuben Martin'. Turns out there was a famous bloke of this name around that time!! Through the 1830's and 1840's he keeps appearing in the insolvency court (and others). His real name was Reuben Gadd, but he was 'known to the general public as Reuben Martin'. He was a pugilist (and if you're like me you would have to look that up........'Someone who fights with his fists for sport') So maybe Edward was given the name Reuben as a joke pet name as Dancer suggested, and MAYBE this bloke who was 'well known across the land' was the reason why! Sarah

Hi DD Mary was illegitimate as I mentioned above so not sure how I'd prove her father was Reuben. But given they called their son Reuben, the name comes from somewhere! John Thomas is the only other Martin child apart from my 4xgrandmother Elizabeth who I've managed to find a marriage for. Going to see what it says for the father on JT's! Sarah That's disturbing! Going for that lie down now! L x