Genealogy Chat

Did you say you have sent off for the birth certs of the oldest children?? You will post on here when you get them, won't you?? Mark feels like a member of my own family (the B****r!!) - I must find out EVERYTHING you do!! lol Sarah

Hi I've just read your thread. I have had 'missing' famillies on census' and they have turned out to be mistranscribed. I have 'Hirst' listed as 'Thuot' that I found by putting in only the first name and birth date of a son along with the county info, I then trawled through all the names until I saw a surname that looked odd - when I viewed it there was the family - the rest of them with shortened or misspelt names. I found one today listed as Johnb Arker, so the rest of the family were Arkers - no points for guessing and it was a capital B! Try putting as much info in that you believe they will have used eg birthplace but not using the names then check the lists. widen and narrow it depending on how many are returned. good lick

Thanks for looking Andrea. It's just a little bit comforting to know that this is frustrating someone else as well as me. You start to feel a bit of an idiot when you can't get any further forward. I will solve the mystery one day but in the meantime any help is appreciated. Thanks, Dea x

Hi Dea Yes, it was the same census page. Looking with a fresh pair of eyes today, I can see it looks like Joiner. Your brick wall is beginning to frustrate me now. I was looking for ages last night and was determined to find Mark in the 1871 census. Shame if they were in Ireland. I've got some ancestors with Irish roots and they are a nightmare to find birth and marriages for. Regards Andrea

Thanks Lib, This really is a tricky one and you just confirmed what I thought re the death cert. I will 'crack it' one day. Dea x

Sarah, You have just given me a thought!!! I hthink I have checked for marriages up until 1991 BUT If he died in 1996 (I think - without looking at my notes) - I had not sent for his death certificate because I know he had died - BUT - would the death certificate prove who he was last actually married to ??? Dea x

Ah, so honeymooned in Ireland, Margaret decided she prefered to stay, Mark returned and needed someone to look after kids - jane. No marriage because already married to Margaret! Have you checked much later for a marriage, in case they tied the knot once Margaret had died years later? My hubby's ancestor waited until 1881 to marry again after the death of his first wife, who he abandoned for the new woman in 1842!! Sarah

Hi Sarah, Welcome to another day! Thanks for your summary which is all correct and sorted now. As to your suggestions: Birth Certs for the older children - I had not sent for these as it seemed quite clear thay they were Mark + Margaret, HOWEVER, On reflection I suppose at least it would give us a better idea of when he 'swapped' Margaret for Jane !!. Someone kindly found me a Margaret yesterday (under the name McGlaughlin + born in Stockport - not too far away) - I have looked for her on 1861 and found her with widdowed mother so no nearer to a father yet but at least I have something to work on - she is certainly a possibility. Also, this newly found Margaret is of Irish descent and therefore it is possible that She and Mark honeymooned in Ireland when the 1871 census was taking place. Any ideas how I could look for them over there? Still need either the death of Margaret or a marriage to Jane - perhaps your pneumatic drill is the best suggestion yet? Dea x

Maybe you need an pneumatic drill for your wall? Sarah

Hi Dea, Here's a summary of my ramblings from yesterday, so please ignore all my previous efforts lol The George on the 1861 census (father of Mark b 1851) is a joiner, though it does look quite like miner, which is what I read in error yesterday. In 1871 I still cannot find Mark aged abt 20 and Margaret aged??? In 1881 I found Mark with Jane, but also another older Mark with a Margaret. I wondered if the marriage ref from Q1 1971 belonged to this older couple?? Later on, I discovered that the older Mark didn't marry his Margaret until 1877 (she was Margaret Ireland), so that was a red herring. Plus you then said you had the actual 1871 mariage cert which showed it refered to Mark son of George (the joiner). So, back to square one! Suggestions Try and get the birth certs for the older Fenton children. Try and find Margaret in 1861 (what's her father's name and occupation?) This would be in order to give you a different stab at finding them in 1871 with the benefit of her age and place of birth. Maybe Mark and Margaret split up, rather that Margaret dying? Then he was living with Jane because his first wife was still alive? I've checked on family relatives (as their indexes are supposedly complete for the period) for the death of Margaret and the marriage of Mark to Jane (again, lol), but there is nothing that looks sensible for the death, unless Margaret was much older and didn't die locally, and nothing showing for the marriage. Uummmm..... Stuck now! Sarah

Andrea, I think this is a different one ?? I have George as a Joiner on 1861 at 11 Briggs St. Salford. Ref RG9 2915. - If you did not now he was a Joiner in 1871 - the writing could look like 'miner'. Is this the same one you are looking at? Dea x

It might be an idea to send away for Thomas or John's birth certificate. I think this is John's birth: Name: FENTON, John William Record Type: Births Quarter: December Year: 1872 District: Salford County: Greater Manchester Lancashire Volume: 8d Page: 89 I also found George as MINER in 1861 census. Regards Andrea

Thanks Sarah, Nite nite - see you tomorrow ! Sleep well, Dea x

Oh - take no notice of me!! Am on the wine. Maybe we should take a fresh look tomorrow, or something! I haven't gone any later than 1881. You are the one with the cert and I may have misread George's occupation in 1861 - I thought it was miner, but could easily have been joiner! Look at all those similar letters lol!! Sarah

Oh my Gosh Sarah - You have TOTALLY confused me now! MY Mark who married in 1871 was the son of George who I believe was a Joiner NOT a miner. I believe HIS son was the one who married Alice in 1899??, and I don't know anything ANYMORE. XXX

Maybe your Mark and Margaret were on an extended tour of Europe for their honeymoon in 1871???!! lol Sarah

Ok - So the Mark who married in 1871 was the son of George a miner, and the older Mark who is with Margaret in 1881 was the son of Samuel a Furnace labourer!! Not only that, but Mark who was married to Margaret on the 1881, was married to Alice on the 1871. Huge apologies for doubting you!!! Sarah

Andrea, Yes, that's the one - He was a stone mason. I have him in 1881 and 1891 - with Jane. By 1901 he was dead but I can't find him in 1871 when he should be with Margaret + children (whos?), Thomas and John/ Dea x

Sarah, Yes, I have the certificate. After many e-mails to Lancs BMD telling them they had got it wrong - I was embarrased to receiv the cert which proved them right. Mark Fenton did indeed marry Margaret McLoughlin on January 2nd 1871. Dea

Hi Dea Did you find him in the 1891 census? I just want to see that I'm looking at the right people. He's a stone mason married to Jane, with 5 children. Regards Andrea