Genealogy Chat

Surgg Velly Mill wall. is this right, or is it a mistranscription? 1861 census for Lewisham, RG9/415 pg 8, birth place of Daniel Hone aged 17. can anyone put me right??? TIA Bev

thats what it says Hanover Street ,but I wonder whether it should say Surgg Valley Mill Wall just tried googling and nothing came up

thanks val just seemed an ood name for london now if it had been Wales!!! lol Bev

Millwall is in London, could it have been in Surrey in those days. Derek

Surgg Velly is clearly a mistranscription. Could be for Surrey. Millwall is definitely one word. nell

I don't think that it has been transcribed as it is written. If you look at the original it doesn't look like Surgg Velly to me. I assume Mill Wall is Millwall on the north side of the river. It is Daniel's birth place not the census place in Lewisham. The writer places the county name first (eg Kent Bromley, Kent Lewisham) so 'Surgg' should be the county and may be Surrey, but then Millwall is not in Surrey. Velly looks more like Volly to me but does it even begin with a 'V'? I've looked at other census pages and the writer's spelling isn't too good. John

Bev Can you find Daniel's birthplace from later censuses? nell

Looks like a Daniel Hone age 56 on the 1901 census living St Pauls Deptford (Deptford is very near Lewisham). Gives birth place as Bow which I think is near Millwall (others may know more about that area). There are 3 other Hones living with Daniel. Can't see him on the 81 though.

Deffo Surrey. (Something) mill VALE (not wall)

When I had a look, I thought that what should be a County name, actually looks like 'Twigg' and that the next word looks like 'Jolly' (although first letter open to negotiation!). I reckon it does look like Mill Wall - there are two down-points to the first letter of Wall, which excludes a V. The only thing I could think it meant was that he was born on a boat. I don't know how big a 'jolly' boat was/is - but I know they existed. Perhaps the mum was crossing the river by boat - it would be a bit like those who are born in a taxi on the way to the hospital, I suppose. Christine

There is a Surr Street in London, but it is nearer to Camden Town. You will probably need to look at an old map as much of the Isle of Dogs has been rebuilt in the last 50 years.

I think there may have been a place called Twigg Folly Am looking up more info now - refs to Bethnal green Christine

Hi did some googling and found: http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/html_sessions/T18260511.html The Proceedings of the Old Bailey 11th May, 1826 Crime Location: Mile-end-road ANDREW GERMAN. I live in Mile-end-road. On the 24th of April I and Mrs. German were passing over the canal bridge in the Mile-end-road, about half-past four o'clock - I observed about twenty men at the foot of the bridge - they seemed to notice me; I turned towards the water, hoping they would pass me - the foremost of them, who wore a fustian jacket, immediately came, rushed against me and took my watch; eight or nine of the others were close behind him; one of them said, 'Has he got it?' the other said 'Has he got your watch?' I believe Provost to be the man who advanced and took my watch; I know it was the man in a fustion jacket, but do not know his features - they all passed me towards the left, and about nine of them ran off - the others stopped behind on the crown of the bridge; I pursued the nine across the field some way without making any alarm; I then gave up the pursuit - they passed an unfinished house near the foot of the next bridge, which is called Twig-folly - they would pass Marriott's house in their way; I got an officer and shewed him the spot; I have not found my watch; I received no personal injury. JOSEPH COLE . I live in Oldford-lane, about two hundred yards from the bridge. On the 24th of April I saw some men come over the bridge, and turn to the left towards Twig-folly; I am certain Provost was among them - he was dressed in a fustian jacket, corduroy knee breeches, and ankle shoes - nine of them all ran across the field - Mr. German was pursuing them; he almost got hold of Provost's coat, and then gave up the pursuit; I was standing at my father's window; I am certain of Provost. SARAH MARRIOTT . My house stands in the field between Old-ford and Twigg-folly bridges. About half-past four o'clock on this afternoon I saw nine men running by to Twig-folly, seven went round the wharf, and the two leaped over the wall, and they turned towards Green-street, Devonshire-street, and Prospect-place. WILLIAM FRANKS . I live in Green-street, near Twigfolly bridge. About half-past four o'clock, I saw some men running from the bridge across Twig-folly, a long Green-street, Prospect-place, and Devonshire-street - both the prisoners were among them - Provost had a fustian coatee, between a coat and a jacket, corded breeches, and black stockings; Burdett had a coat on with sleeves. MARY ANN FISHER . I live in Prospect-place, Devonshire-street, about a quarter of a mile from Twig-folly bridge. On the 24th of April nine men ran by my house in a direction from that bridge towards my house; the prisoners are two of them - I knew them before by sight - Burdett wore a jacket - Provost had a lightish jean coatee, light breeches, and high shoes - McDonald asked asked what was the matter - Provost said we are going to a fight. To try to work out where all this took place, I have been looking at a contemporary London map on: http://www.motco.*com (remove *) I could have saved myself a lot of time by following the link on the Old Bailey site - direct to Motco - with marks to show the different crimes mentioning the Mile End Road. Twigg Folly bridge seems to be somewhere near where the Mile End Road crosses the canal. Christine

Bev, I can't add anything to the 1861 census interpretation but have found the family in the 1851 census index. Surname Forename Age Area S&N Filename, S&N CD Page Hone Daniel 33 Camberwell, Peckham H107/1581 737 Hone Mary 30 Camberwell, Peckham H107/1581 737 Hone Sophia 8 Camberwell, Peckham H107/1581 737 Hone Daniel 6 Camberwell, Peckham H107/1581 737 Hone George 4 Camberwell, Peckham H107/1581 737 Hone Jane 10 M Camberwell, Peckham H1071581 737 Perhaps someone with access to the relevant census CD from S&N will be able to help. Pete

I've found it! An earlier map on Motco. GREENWOOD MAP OF LONDON Second Edition 1830 (8 inches to a mile) South off Green Street, just to the West of the canal. I think the Twig Folly bridge must be over the canal - where Green Street crosses it. Christine

Comparing UkStreetMap with the 1830 map... Green Street is now called Roman Road. Digby Street can still be found, as can Knottesford St - except that it's spelled Knottisford Street. Bullards Place & Smart Street are still there, and Bonner Street. Old Ford Road is still there. Palmers Road seems to be where Twig Folly was. If you scan to the West, Globe Road is in the same place as it was - and Bethnal Green, likewise. Christine

Hello Bev. Peckham, where Daniel was in 1851, is again very close to Lewisham so he is in the right area. Have you found a marriage for Daniel, and if so where?

I think Christine was spot on. Had a look at streetmap and there is a Twig Folly Close in London (E2). Area is Mile End, there is a Mile End Park and Regents Canal nearby. Bow is over to the right.

Bev, apologies, not hijacking your thread but can I ask Selena a question please Selena Sorry this is off topic but I keep seeing your name on the Boards and I am intrigued. You don't I suppose come from a Bailey/Fry line of ancestors do you (SE London) - Selena/Selina is in my line from about mid 1850s - not common back then :-))) jan xx

Hi Jan, no problem. There are 2 other Selena's in my family but they are all from Wales! The other half of my family are South East London but no connections with Bailey or Fry as yet! Good luck with the hunt.