Genealogy Chat

I've had the second marriage cert for years!! My poor mum bought it from Somerset House in the 1950's when grandad was claiming his old age pension. Mum had to get the marriage cert and both their birth certs for them. She found her mum's birth cert after a bit of searching as gran had knocked four years off her age. Then she looked for gran and grandad's marriage cert and didn't find it because she was looking too early. Gran had always said she married grandad on her 21st birthday, when it was her 25th birthday. What if, when mum was searching, she had found the 1915 marriage????!!!!! Gran had an unusual name, so it would have been obvious it was her - so what would mum have done??? Come home and kept her mouth shut is the answer!! As it happens she only saw the one to grandad, prob because she only had to check Q4 each year and the other one was in Q2!! These flippin' mysteries have kept us going for years. Mum has almost given up the soaps as she says this is more interesting!! Merry

Ooh, well done Merry - I find it often pays to create a mystery when wanting to know something! (Well, they must get bored too, mustn't they) I meant get BOTH certs - the bigamous one and the second one. However, thinking about it, as she was pretending to her hubby to be a sweet young thing, she couldnt risk telling the Registrar about the bigamous marriage, in case he wrote something on her marriage lines, which new hubby would see and wonder about. Its looking more and more like she just simplified things for herself and acted as if she had never been married. But as you say, she must have THOUGHT that she was doing something wrong and we are told that the intent is as bad as the deed! But I will still be interested to hear what the Registrar has to say after he has compared both entries. Keep me informed! Olde Crone

When you say, ''Get the other cert''....do you mean find out what's written in the PR's? I have the bigamous marriage cert already! I have emailed the OPC for Preston asking tham which church was ''The Parish Church Preston'' in 1915 as there are several to choose from, according to Genuki. I have told them an abreviated version of the story, in the hope of whetting their appitite enough that they will offer to do the look-up for me!! (Worth a try!) Merry

Merry There's only one High Court, but not sure how you access their records - errrmmmm, 'Hansard' pops into my mind, or is that the House of Lords???Probably much easier and cheaper to get the other cert and see what happens. (I was divorced in the High Court - my first husband had delusions of grandeur and the local Court wasn't good enough for him. It cost an arm and a leg.) Olde Crone

Right then......I think my course of action must be this...... I already know the GRO entry is in the indexes, nothing in the margin and I was allowed to order and have received the certificate. There would be no way (I think) to know which court might have been applied to in order to ask for a declaration of nullity, so I can't persue that line. So I shall need to see the copy of the marriage entry in the PR's to see if THAT has anything written by it!! If it has, then I know gran should have had a clear conscience when she remarried, except for not having mentioned her previous exploits!! If there is nothing there then I will still be wondering (bet this is what happens!!) I still think there is a possibility gran didn't know the first marriage was bigamous (the police and army never noticed and they interviewed gran about her husband after they had separated. Surely she would have said, ''Don't you know what ELSE he has done, apart from the thefts?''). If she didn't know the marriage was unlawful and she also didn't know hubby number one was killed in August 1917 (under an assumed name) then she would have been worrying on the second marriage wedding night (Nov 1917), not only that her new hubby might be able to tell she was not a virgin!! but also that she had just comitted bigamy!! (though she hadn't!!!!) ''Oh what an evil web we weave, when we first practice to deceive!'' Merry

My Partner had a lot of trouble trying to find her Grandfather. When she did he was born out of wedlock so there is no father on the birth certificate so we know how difficult it seems at times. Keep up the good work Cheers Ken

Gwyneth Ah, well, that would make sense, wouldn';t it - the second marriage was bigamous, therefore void. As we all know, a Registrar, not even the Registrar General, can actually DELETE any records once they have been written, but he can add a note in the margin which refers to a Corrections Book, in which are written all the secrets! I think its probably the old case of: there IS a rule,but not everyone follows it;probably all Registrars do, but not all Registrar's clerks, if you see what I mean. Having seen some less than perfect entries in PARISH registers, I wonder if, post-registration, the Registrar always remembered to inform the Vicar (if one was involved)that a marriage he had performed on such and such a date was void, annulled or bigamous! (Hmm, might explain all those marriages which appear in the PRs but dont seem to have got to the GRO!!!There's a thought!). So, Merry, there is an extremely outside chance that the marriage still stands in the Church Registers. Yes, I bet she had a few sleepless nights over this, but, silly woman, she hadnt actually done anything illegal - must have been her guilty conscience! I don't suppose the Wedding Night posed any problems, if she was as good an actress as you say she was. Olde Crone

I don't know if this is any help but I know someone doing a one name study. In order to establish which Jane was married in Portsmouth ( from GRO index) mid 1800s my friend applied for the marriage certificate but they wouldn't issue it. There must have been some sort of note on the records, although the reference appeared in the index. By trawling newspapers we found that Jane had remarried, while husband Henry was alive and serving in the Navy. He returned to find her married. The bigamous marriage certificate was the one barred from issue.

Just think - gran would be spinning in her grave if she thought we were talking about this - I now also have a photo of her first ''husband'' - through this site as his granddaughter has her tree on here and she was amazed to discover he had done this as well as all the other naughties!! On the other hand, gran maybe wanted people to know, otherwise why did she keep the envelopes of letters addressed to her in a married surname..... Anyway - I have been searching in The Times for declaration of nullity cases where I can check the original GRO ref. By the time I have dismissed cases with the marriage in Isle of Man or Calcutta plus the ones with no date for the marriage and the ones where the declaration was not granted, I was left with only two! The first marriage (1884) appears as normal in the idexes. The other one (1895), where the hubby was the one disputing the marriage - he is not in the index but she still is!! (I did check the original pages for them all). So it's take your pick really - Different results in different cases! I think you are right - The most likely scenario is that my gran visited her local vicar when she returned home to her parents after the marriage several hundred miles from home. The vicar recognised an attractive and flirty young woman when he saw one!! She would bat her eyelids and tell him what a terrible time she had suffered and flash a little leg....He would say, ''Don't worry my dear, just behave as if the marriage never happened'' and that would be that!! But I bet she still worried!! There was always a dark cloud over the reason she lied about her age...... Not many people are 23 in 1915 and 21 in 1917 !! She needed to seem a virginal young woman when she married the second time!! (Wonder if she had worries about the wedding night lol???) If I find out more you will be the first to know, OC!! Merry

Merry Well, as I say, this information was given to me by my pet Registrar - huh, he might be wrong! I did try to engage the local Vicar in a scintillating conversation re Annulled marriages - as I say, I am obsessed by the thought of all those 'hidden' marriages! But he refused to play, saying that only an Archbishop could annul a marriage and that he, as a Vicar, had never been involved in such a thing. However, I am pretty sure (!!!) that, if you went to the High Court for a declaration of Nullity,the Registrar General would be informed by the Court, and such a thing would be noted against the original 'marriage' record held by the GRO.The fact that no entry is made in the marginal notes is suspicious! But there is the possibility that she sidestepped this hassle of going to Court - may indeed have been told by her Vicar or even the Registrar, that a bigamous marriage (her first) was no marriage at all, that she remained legally a Spinster and was entitled to call herself such on her remarriage - which would have been the first and ONLY marriage that both the Church and the Civil Authorities would recognise as legal. Phew! On the other hand, she might just have gone off and got married anyway and risked it. That doesn't matter, because in the eyes of the law, she hadnt done anything wrong! Gosh, what an exciting family you do have - mine just fell out with the neighbours! I would love to hear the end of this story, if you can find anything out. Olde Crone

Olde Crone - Ooohhh this is SSOOOOOOO important to me to get this sorted!! When you say: ''The only way you could get to see the record of a marriage which was later annulled, is to apply to the Registrar General, giving details of when you believe the annulled marriage took place, and he will confirm what you have told him!!!!'' Are you saying that because my grans first marriage reg appears in the GRO indexes that this means it was not annulled or made void or whatever??? When I asked the same question at the Family Record Office in 1990 they told me it would still appear in the index?? But I could easily believe you instead of them.... I suppose I could look at some of the right-ups for ''declaration of nullity'' in The Times newspaper that I was reading yesterday and for those where they have given the original marriage date, and the declaration of nullity was granted, I could look in the GRO indexes to see if the entry shows?? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick as usual :O(( Merry

Merry Now, this is really interesting, because a few years ago I was talking to my pet Registrar, who told me that in the 1800s, anything upto 5,000 marriages a year were ANNULLED.(Yes, I know yours was later than that). I have been fascinated by this ever since. An Annulment of marriage, by its very nature, means that a marriage never legally took place and it is as if both people had never married.There are therefore NO RECORDS for any marriages which were later annulled, even though the marriages appear in the Registers. I hope this is making sense! The only way you could get to see the record of a marriage which was later annulled, is to apply to the Registrar General, giving details of when you believe the annulled marriage took place, and he will confirm what you have told him!!!! Prior to Civil Registration, annulled marriages were scratched out in the Parish Registers! In those days you would of course have had to apply to a Church Court for an annulment. A voided marriage, I think, is slightly different, as you have said above, but the qualifications for annulling a marriage are very similar - you would not have entered into the marriage had you known 'X' about that person. I do know that in the 1800s, it was sufficient for the Church to annul a marriage, if, for instance, a man had been transported for seven years or more - he could not fulfil his marital duties from that distance (LOL). It was no great palaver, the local Vicar accepted the wife's assurance that her first old man had been sent to Australia or wherever, and she was allowed to remarry. Someone has a (re)marriage cert stating exactly this - 'Dora Bloggs, the wife of John Bloggs transported for life'. Fascinating - I can't stop thinking about all those unpublished marriages which were later annulled - I WANT TO LOOK AT THEM!!! Olde Crone

Gwyneth, I think if Catholics divorce, they can remarry but the Catholic Church does not recognise the 2nd marriage unless they get an annullment from the Vatican, but the 2nd marriage would be legal in the eyes of the law. I think that is right, but I stand corrected. Sue

Sorry Gwyneth, I was responding to Heather - I don't know!! Catholic's have some different ideas about annulment of marriages.......Need to ask a Catholic! Merry

Yes, he was, so that makes it OK even if she hadn't done anything about her dodgy marriage - she might have known hubby 1 was dead and thought she was a widow (put spinster on the cert though...) BUT WHAT DID SHE KNOW????'. If gran didn't know the marriage was a bigamous one, and then married again not knowing hubby number one was dead (as he was serving under a false name) - then she would have always been waiting for the authorities to catch up with her, because in her eyes, her second marriage would have been bigamous (think big time hammy actress for my gran - always doing dramatic faints and/or lying in a darkened room calling for the doctor and saying she was dying - she lived to 92!!!). This would go a VERY LONG way to explain my gran's massive mood swings, refusal to mention anything in her past and one hundered and one other things !! If I could find that she had gone for a declaration of nullity, then at least I would know that she had found out that hubby number one was already married and would have married number 2 with a clear concience! Merry

What about nowadays? I know someone who married an Italian chap in England in the 1970s. It was a 1st marriage for her but he had been previously married in a Catholic ceremony in Italy and had a daughter. I heard that he had had the 1st marriage annulled. Does that count in our law? Gwyn... nosey now

But wasn't he dead by the time your grandma married in 1917? Heather

Have been reading about declarations of nullity. You could apply to the High Court for one if you wanted ''out'' of a marriage where you had grounds that there was something amiss at the time the marriage took place. (as opposed to a divorce, where something has gone wrong after the marriage!) Some possible grounds for a declaration of nullity (all ''at date of marriage''): Person underage for any form of marriage Underage for marriage without consent (and none given) Previous marriage still lawful Person insane Marrying with false name in order to conceal identity (often underage people!) Rushing to Gretna and then not living in Scotland for the statutary number of days before the ceremony I'm sure you can think of more..... Merry

Ooh, I've just found this on the web ( incase anyone else has this situation.....) ''A marriage is void if it does not comply with the requirements for legal marriage. In addition, although considerations of domicle mean that UK court may recognize polygamous marriages conducted outside the UK, a marriage of this type will be void if either party was domiciled in the UK. If either partner in a void marriage seeks to marry again, a `declaration of nullity' must be sought from the High Court. If a marriage is though to be void (see void marriage), either partner can apply to the High Court for a ''declaration of nullity'', indicating that the marriage effectively never took place.'' So, my gran should have applied for a declaration of nullity before her second marriage. (Bet she didn't lol) I wonder if I can find out if she did?? Merry

OOh that's interesting!! Thank you. So you would only have to prove it if someone asked you to - ie find the original cert.............might be difficult to prove if the first husband was called John Smith..... Hmmmm Merry