Genealogy Chat

Hi Angela - sorry, only just realised you had answered me - thought I had well and truly killed this thread lol!! In answer to your question - no, I haven't had the heart yet to trawl through the (what must be lots of) deaths for William Bells in East London. I suppose what I really need IS the 1851 - still not on-line, although we are all twitching !!! Its the differing occupations and the young wife really that have thrown me I think. Any more thoughts?? Thank you for your interest by the way! Maz. XX

It looks like this time my assumption was right!! A letter popped through the door yesterday from the Derbyshire Records Office with the information about my Joice Abbot and William Beard marriage and yes, William was from Ipstones so I had the right one. But oh, woe is me, I have had to scrap one twig from my tree because I now have the correct birth details for one of my other rellies who I had made the wrong assumption about. I think that in future I will have to 'pencil people in' until I am absolutely sure of my information. Ah well. One lives and learns.

Helllo Merry, Thanks for your time! I think I managed to find her over the weekend living with her parents and sister in 1891. But who knows you could be right...

Ian - You didn't mention how old Maud Smith said she was when she married?? Could this be her in 1881? Alfred SMITH Head M Male 29 Cocking, Sussex, England Baker Ruth SMITH Wife M Female 31 Chichester, Sussex, England Evalena Kate SMITH Daur Female 6 Chichester, Sussex, England Scholar Frances Liln SMITH Daur Female 5 Chichester, Sussex, England Scholar Augusta An SMITH Daur Female 4 Chichester, Sussex, England Scholar Albert SMITH Son Male 2 Chichester, Sussex, England Maud SMITH Daur Female 9 m Midhurst, Sussex, England Dad a baker and all living in Heyshott, Sussex. Maybe not? She is a servant in Littlehampton, Sussex in 1901. UPDATE _ No, she's plain Maud on her 1880 birth reg! Merry

Hi Maz - Sorry for the delay. Been away for the weekend. Do you have any death information for William? Presumably he died between 1851 and 1861?

ok, here's another one .... my gt gt grandfather is James William BELL b 1830 his father from marriage cert is William BELL a Tavern Keeper 1851 Census has a William Bell age 59 - Brewer's Traveller - and a James Bell age 21 - a Pawnbroker's Assistant, at the Phoenix in Poplar, east London. Can't find the Phoenix listed in any Directories or on any later censuses. Can't find William on any later censuses. I know my James in 1853 (when he married) is a Tavern Keeper, then later is a Corn Dealer, then a Timber Merchant. In 1851 William is shown as Head with a wife, Susannah age 27, born Wivenhoe, Essex (dirty old man lol) and a daughter Alice - age 6 born Wivenhoe, Essex. Have got William/Susannah's marriage cert, he is listed as Traveller, they married in Colchester, Essex. Alice's birth cert shows him as an Inn Keeper. My dilemma is down to the fact that Bell is not an uncommon name and obviously at the moment I can't trawl through an 1851 index (HURRY UP ANCESTRY LOL!!) to see if there are others that could match. Do you think I can assume that James and William are 'my' James and William??? Or am I making a problem out of nothing??? Thanks guys! Maz. XX sorry so long-winded lol

Ian SOmetimes people can be very exact about their occupations. I have a silversmith who at eth time of the 1881 census was working making the silver parts of coach harnesses and has described himself as a 'coach harness maker' whereas on every other source he is a silver smith or silver plater Zoe

Hi Justine, Basically there are no enumertor sheets (which we are all used to) only the original sheets filled in by households. They have not yet been microfiched or scanned. They are apparently kept in a big warehouse that smells bad. So all in all things are not looking good. For more info search the tips and record office pages here in GR for '1911'.

Thanks Lynne. I have tried to find Ethel/Maud but there are so many in the 1901 census, although I do know her father was Albert Smith (baker). It would be great if there was an Ancestry option that allowed you to find two people in the same household!

Ian Have you looked for Maud or Ethel Maud Smith on the 1901 census. That may help to confirm whether or not this is the right person, although I would say it probably. Many people with 2 names use their second name. (EG: My husband is Thomas John but has always been known as John). Lynne

Good question Kate! In the birth certificate he is down as a guilder (i think this is the right spelling, may be gilder) in the census his occupation is picture frame maker. Pictiure frames can be gilded with gold leaf etc..........

Ian - do the occupations given for John on the birth and marriage certificates match? Kate.

Hi there. Here's one for you. It worries me every time I look at this branch of my tree. My grandfather John Donaldson was born in London in 1905. I know from his birth cert. that his parents were John Donaldson and Maud Smith. So, off I toddled to freeBMD and Ancestry to look for John Donaldson and Maud Smith marriages in London. Lo and behold I found a marriage between John Donaldson and Ethel Maud Smith........ Tempting because the marriage is just over a year before John was born. John Snr. came from Hemel Hempstead and moved to London in the 1890's. This line is very interesting with pub owners and a jockey. But are they mine........ The only way I think this can be resolved is by looking at the 1911 census - and we all know how good that is going to be :)

Thank you for your help, everyone. I feel a bit better now I know that you don't all think that I have got it completely wrong. Will try and get the register transcript, and think about whether Joice may have been married before. Thanks again.

My grandfather, MICHAEL NOLAN born LANARK SCOTLAND died LIVERPOOL 9th May 1940 aged 69yrs. CATHERINE NOLAN, wife born SCOTLAND died LIVERPOOL,18th Sept 1951. There are not too many nolans in Lanark so i have managed to narrow them down, i have latched on to one Michael and Catherine and have done well tracing them, but because Michael arrived in Liverpool between 1910-1922 i cannot be sure, its really them, i hope so because i can't find a death in Scotland for these two, until i do i will put them down as rellies, and i have grown quite fond of them, so i might just adopt them as mine!...MOE!

I think I will try and solve the problem of the marriage before I move on to the problem of the two Williams. Both Joice and William died in Ipstones and their ages at death are both correct for the William born 1751 in Ipstones and Joice Bott born in Alton. I don't know what happened to the other William. He doesn't appear to have married in Ipstones or died there, so I suppose he moved away? It just niggles me that the name of the first child of 'my' William was also the name of the father of the other one. Joice Bott also does not appear to have married in Alton, nor died there.

I am hoping to do that this weekend as I am going up to Derbyshire. Depends on whether I can make it to the Records Office before they close at lunchtime! Unfortunately the SOG doesn't have register copies for Walton for that period. Having said that, I haven't found the parish registers much help at other times as they have said something really unhelpful like 'lodgers' or 'of this parish' when neither of the couple were! Might strike lucky at this time though.

In other parts of the country, there are surnames that lose an initial A over time. I wouldn't have any problem with Abott = Bott. The traditional way to look for this is to find lots of examples of the surname and see what the variants are, but if she is marrying out of area, then it depends on her accent and the hearing of the minister. No problem either with her marrying out of area as young unmarried women would hire themselves out as servants. Whether it's the right William is a quite different matter and I would be looking for as many non parish records as possible, to find out about both families. Wills, land tax, manorial, deeds, poor law, court cases etc.

Have you sighted the parish register itself, or are you relying on the IGI record for the William Beard / Joice Abbott marriage? The PR may well give you additional info: usually it will give the parish that they were from (though not necessarily where they were born), as well as witness names, which may help to prove or disprove the connection. It should also confirm whether Joice was a spinster or a widow when she married William (I've been caught out on this one before, searching for a baptism record for a marriage partner, then after seeing the marriage record in the register, realising that she was a widow re-marrying).

I had thought that too, although we all know what variations there were in spelling at that time. My mother coincidentally is a Joyce. It seems to have been a popular name in the 1600s, died out for a while then come back in the 20th century.