Genealogy Chat

I have been researching my partner’s tree and have a problem with his gt, gt grandfather - Fred Barber Jepson. The family have his baptism certificate (05/01/1862, Manchester) and know he had children including a son, Fred, my partner’s grandfather in 1899. However, it appears he had 2 ‘wives’ – Alice Graves, who I can find a marriage cert for but no death certificate, and Catherine Leckie Gordon, who I can find no certs for, who each bore him 3 children but with Alice bearing the first, Catherine the next two, Alice the next two and Catherine the last! Fred and Alice moved to Scotland (coincidentally where Catherine was from) after Catherine had her first two. I have found Alice listed in the 1881 census living with Fred’s parents Charles and Mary in Lancashire (no sign of Fred), in 1891 Fred was living with ‘wife’ Catherine in Manchester (no sign of an Alice) and in the 1901 Scottish census Fred was living with Alice again. My partners’ father remembers his grandmother as Leckie (not Alice, his true grandmother) and had no idea of the ‘interesting’ family conundrum until we started researching it. Does anyone have any explanations? I don’t know where to look next. Any help / advice is much appreciated.

Hi Pauline Thanks for the reply. I thought exactly the same - it had to be 2 different Fred's - but it doesn't explain why my partners great grandfather's mother is listed on his birth certificate as from the 'wrong' wife, i.e. not the one his father remembers as his grandmother! Alice is listed on her marriage cert and census as being from Manchester and Katherine (the one his father remembers) was definately Scottish - and was listed as such in the census. I was even prepared to believe they could be the same - Alice and 'Leckie' but Graves and Gordon are such different surnames. I am trying to fill in the extended family to check for any other Fred's (haven't come across any yet), but I think the main mystery is what's on the certificates (and my partners fathers memory) ...

Maybe he was married to them both at the same time? It's happened before, did his job involve a lot of travelling and being away from home for long periods of time?

Hi Jenna No, he was a clerk. He was living with both women in Manchester at different times! I can understand that maybe he left one wife for the other but it doesn't explain why he had children with each of them in turn - twice. Surely two woman wouldn't stand for that! As Alice is missing from the 1891 census but re-appears with fred and the ever growing number of children in Scotland in 1901, I was wondering where else she could be - hospital, prison ...? But I am struggling... As I can't find a marriage certificate for Fred and his second 'wife', or a death certificate for her - despite knowing she must have died in the late 1930's / early 1940's while living in the Hendon area of London - is there another approach i can take to try and understand what happened? Unfortunately there are few relatives from Fred Barber - although he had a number of children, most didn't have children and I have no way of getting in touch with the relatives of those he did (unless they are reading this board). Any clues where to go next ... I'm stumped!

Jo, Have you actually got the marr cert for Fred and Alice, or do you mean you have found the registration of the marriage? Have you any documentary evidence for Katharine Leckie Gordon, or is it just that her grandson remembers the name? I can confirm that Leckie/Aleckie is a pet name for Alicia, so presumably it would apply to Alice as well. Jay

Hi Yes, I have a copy of the marriage cert for Fred and Alice Graves from the record office, in 1879 although his age is listed as 20 (and his baptism certificate, which came from the family, had his date of birth as 1861). I don't have any birth, marriage or death certificates for Katherine although she is listed on the birth certificates and marriage certificates (two got married in Scotland and mothers are listed there) of her natural children. Throughout the paperwork there is a very clear division between Alice formerly Gaves and Katherine (sometimes spelt with a C, although my partners aunt is spelt with a K which I believe is the correct family spelling). The children with Alice on their birth certificates also list her on their marriage certificates and likewise with Katherine. It's a real mystery ... is it worth paying a professional to have a look? I'm stumped!

I can go along with Fred having two wives, but in that case it seems very odd indeed that the two women never both appear in a census, even allowing for mistranscriptions. Where are the two sets of children in census years or are they missing too, as well as the mother?

Am I OK to still post on this board or should I be on 'Trying to Find'? OK, I have: Fred Barber Jepson born in Manchester to Charles and Maria from Dewsbury, Yorks in May 1851 *** Frederick marries Alice Graves in Manchester in November 1879. (Frederick's father is listed as Charles). Frederick's profession is a Boot Salesman. **** 1880 birth certificate, Cheetham Machester: Charles Harry born to Fred Jepson and Alice Jepson formerly Graves. Occupation: Hatter (?!) *** 1881 census: Alice is living with Charles and Maria (no sign of Fred), and Fred';s brother William H, in Manchester with son Charles H (aged 7 months). (William H is listed as unmarried so I am sure this is the same Alice) *** 1891 census: Fred B Jepson living in Cheetham with his 'wife' Katherine from Scotland, his mother, a widow from Dewsbury, Maria, 9 year old son Chas H and 2 year old daughter Carrie. Fred's occupation: Clerk. I don't have a birth certificate for Carrie - can't find it (perhaps because she was a Katherine too and possibly not a 'Jepson', although I have her marriage certificate from Scotland in 1913 which states her mother to be Katherine Jepson, maiden surname Gordon ? *** 1892 birth certificate, Cheetham Manchester: Elsie born to Fred Jepson and Kate Jepson formerly Gordon. Occupation of father Insurance Clerk. *** 1897 birth certificate, Bonhill Dumbartonshire, Scotland: Mary born to Fred Jepson and Alice Jepson, maiden surname Graves. Occupation: Insurance Superintendant. (Address of birth 292 Main Street, Alexandria) *** 1899 birth certificate, Bonhill Dumbartonshire Scotland: Fred (partners great grandfather) born to Fred Barber Jepson and Alice Jepson maiden surname Graves. Occupation: Clerk. (Address of birth 292 Main Street, Alexandria) **** 1901 census, Scotland: I need to relook at this as it doesn't seem to be on my computer! *** 1901 marriage certificate, Edinburgh: Charles H Jepson married Violet Robertson. Father Fred Barber Jepson mother Alice Jepson, maiden surname Graves. Fathers' occupation: Mercantile Clerk. *** 1904 birth certificate, Bonhill Dumbarton: William Henry Jepson born to Fred Jepson and Katherine Jepson, maiden surname Gordon. Birth address: 292 Main Street, Alexandria. *** 1913 marriage certificate, Bonhill Dumbarton: Carrie Jepson married Alfred John Davey. Father Fred Barber Jepson, mother Katherine Jepson, maiden surname Gordon. Fathers' occupation: Cashier. Carrie's home address: 292 Main Street, Alexandria (!) *** 1918 marriage certificate, Bonhill Dumbarton: Elsie Jepson married Herbert Wilkes. Father Fred Barber Jepson, mother Katherine Leckie Jepson, maiden surname Gordon. Fathers' occupation: Invoice clerk. Elsie's home address: 292 Main Street, Alexandria. *** 1920 marriage certificate, Kingsbury Middlesex: Fred Jepson (my partners great grandfather) married Marjorie Elizabeth. Father Fred Barber Jepson, Occupation: clerk. *** 1931 death certificate, Hendon Middlesex: Frederick Barber Jepson aged 70 at Redhill Hospital, Edgware.

Hi Jo This is a strange one. If you didnt have Katherine and Alice both having children at the same address I'd say you had 2 different families. Who registered the births? If it was the same person on all the 'Alice' births and then someone different for the 'Katherine' ones then maybe she is the same woman just known by both names? Jacqui

Probably less than helpful, but it wouldn't be the first time a man moved his mistress into the marital home and the wife left in a huff, to go and live with HIS outraged parents! And then decided to give it another go....only to find out he was still seeing the other woman.... I think you have to get some certs for each 'set 'of children (oops, see you already have them). Where did this naughty man die and who was the informant? Olde Crone

Yes, it's very strange - and the obvious reason would be to think there are 2 Fred Jepsons ... but it just doesn't make sense (not that what I have does!) The informants are as follows: Charles H - informant Alice, mother Carrie - no birth cert found Elsie - informant Kate, mother Mary - informant Fred, father Fred - informant Fred, father William - informant - Fred, father I have just found the listing for the 1901 census in Alexandria, Scotland. They were mis transcribed as Jackson: Fredk B., age 39 Alice, age 37 Carrie, age 12 Elsie, age 7 Mary, age 3 Fred, age 1 I also found Charles Henry JEPSON, enumerated or transcribed as JEPHSON, age 20, Private in the 2nd Royal Highlanders - in Montrose District, Angus. So, he had yet to have his final child with Katherine Leckie - where was she or do you think Alice Graves from Manchester and Katherine Leckie Gordon from Scotland were one and the same? If so, why have 2 such different names and birth places? One thing to mention, my partner's father remembers all his aunts and uncles with the exception of Charles who he had never heard of. It may be that because he was older and stayed in Scotland, maybe he died before my partner's father was born, but they were a relatively close family so it is strange he had never even heard of him.

Sorry, my mistake - he was actually born inMay 1861, a slip of the finger I'm afraid, so at least the birth certificate is right! The informant of his death was his son Fred (my partner's grandfather). 'Leckie' was still alive then and, I guess, living in the Hendon / Edgware / Kingsbury area. What are the chances there would be an obituary? Slim, I guess, considering he was only a clerk. I can understand his wife moved out after he moved in with his 'mistress' but she moved back in with him and then he ended up with his 'mistress' anyway! All the time the children stayed with Fred. Very strange... I suppose that would explain why I can't find a marriage certificate for Katherine and Fred (if there wasn't one!), and why I can't find a birth certificate for Carrie (she may have been born under another name).

Jo If Fred and his parents were all born in Manchester it could just be that Alices inlaws didnt give her correct pob in 1891 Have you found a birth for Katherine or Alice? Jacqui

Jo, Jacqui beat me to it - I was wondering if the origins of either Alice or Katharine would offer any clues! Jay

I am waiting for the birth certificate of: Name: GRAVES, Alice Record Type: Births Quarter: March Year: 1862 District: Manchester (1837-1924) County: Lancashire Volume: 8d Page: 319 (click to see others on page) I am hoping her father is listed as Robert, the same as her and Fred's marriage certificate. Katherine Leckie Gordon is potentially harder as I have no facts about her family. However, there was a Katherine Leckie Gordon born in 1864, daughter of John and Isabella, born in Kelton, Dumfries who is of the right age. Does that help...?

Oooo eer, Jo!!!! I am absolutely riveted by this lot! Mmmmm Jay

I know. My head tells me there must be some mistake - but all the facts (except the fact he started as a boot maker and a hatter before becoming a clerk - can that be right?) point to the mystery. I can't think of any way - short of finding any further surviving grandchildren - of solving the mystery. It's a real shame. I would love to 'solve' it for the family!

Boot salesman and hatter could both have been itinerant trades, so I can understand Fred being away from home in 1881. But that didn't excuse him for playing away! Jay

Have you checked to see if he (Fred) left a will? I don't know how you can check for post-1901 wills in Scotland, though. Kate.

Good point, Kate - from Jo's post, he died in England