Genealogy Chat

see below please...

Hi all, Please can someone explain this for me?.... I have just recieved the birth cert for my Gt grandfather, Edward Parnell..known as Edward Parnell on all census after 1861, but on 1861 as Edward Parnell Davy he was registered under the name of Davy, Parnell Edward 1858 mar Q Forehoe ... thats what I ordered the cert under. Now on the cert there is no fathers name, mothers name is Sarah Dav(e)y. In the box where the name etc of informant info is ...it says Edward Parnell (I thought his fathers name was Edward), occupier, Bawburgh. (Bawburgh is just outside Norwich)..but under the name of the child it definately says Edward Parnell. This has thrown up loads of questions that I can't answer... 1) What does occupier mean? 2) I cant find a marriage between Sarah Davey (Davy) and Edward Parnell snr. although on 1861 census Sarah was Edwards housekeeper and by 1871 his wife. They went on to have other children.. 3) 1851 census shows Edward snr living with his wife Sarah (another Sarah?) and one child George. Can't find a death for this Sarah. I am soooo confused.... sorry if I've confused you too.... hope somebody can help with fresh ideas on this muddle, thanks, Sue PS.. I do have all the census records for this family... 1851 to 1891

I think an ''occupier'' is the house owner or tenant. (On other threads people have discussed what an ''Inmate'' is, other than in a workhouse or other institution. An ''inmate'' can be someone living in a property who is not the houseowner or the tenant............so there must be a word for the houseowner/tenant and guess this is ''occupier''!) Various people could register a birth as well as the mother.......One of those (I think) was the owner of the property. (obviously he might also be the father!) Merry

The 1836 Civil Registration Act named a whole set of people who could register a birth - father, mother, someone 'in attendence' at the delivery, an occupier of the property where the birth took place. Merry

So, Edward PARNELL trots off to register the birth of a child called Edward Parnell DAVEY. I think it fairly safe to assume that Edward senior believed himself to be the father. If he wasn't, he'd either object to the baby's name or refuse to register it.

Absolutely, AFof C!! I bet the registrars had a larff!! Wonder what he said to them? Merry

thanks all, lol Merry, yep bet they had a laugh at that! sorry didn't reply staright away, I went off to eat! So it looks as if Edward snr was the father! .. but why didn't he put his name in the 'fathers box' I wonder... oh well perhaps will never know that answer! Don't suppose anyone can find a death for the 1st Sarah Parnell?...I've had no luck at all....and a marriage for the 2nd Sarah? Sue

Hope your meal was nice?? I can't decide what to have :o(( He couldn't say he was the father if he wasn't married to the mother..........In the 1880's all illigitimate births had to be reg with no dad's name. Before about 1850 the mother could take the father with her to the reg office to have his name entered.....this is how it works now, but I'm not sure when they changed the rule back.......... Anyway, unless he was to lie and say they were married, he couldn't register the birth AND say he was the father............ Maybe if you can't find a marriage they lied about their marital status for later births????? (common to do that!) Merry

Hi Sue so this is Edward Snr in 1861 Emma P Davey abt 1860 Little Melton, Norfolk, England Daughter Little Melton Norfolk Parnell E Davey abt 1858 Bawburgh, Norfolk, England Son Little Melton Norfolk Sarah Davey abt 1830 Intwood, Norfolk, England Housekeeper Little Melton Norfolk Edward Parnell abt 1827 Taverham, Norfolk, England Head Little Melton Norfolk George Parnell abt 1850 Drayton, Norfolk, England Son Little Melton Norfolk Mary A Parnell abt 1853 Drayton, Norfolk, England Daughter Little Melton Norfolk 1851 Edward Parnell abt 1826 Taverham, Norfolk, England Head Costessey Norfolk George Parnell abt 1844 Drayton, Norfolk, England Son Costessey Norfolk Sarah Ann Parnell abt 1831 Drayton, Norfolk, England Wife Costessey Norfolk

Merry, yes thanks meal was nice... Chicken pie (Tesco's!) and veg...lol I didn't know that Merry, so that would explain why he didn't put his name down as father! Zoe, yes thats them.... Sue update...think the 1st Sarah was Sarah Ann Fulcher... thanks for all the imput all.... Its helping to clear the fog! thanks

Have you noticed how many births have a first or middle name of Parnell in the norfolk area! Zoe

Zoe, no I haven't searched with Parnell as a 1st or middle name... sorry I didn't think of putting the surname first!...perhaps I'd better go and have a look at that! But I know there are quite a few Parnell's, some of which may be connected if I can get far enough back... but this muddle was holding me up... thanks for looking, Sue update.... thanks merry and zoe...you've helped a lot... going off to do some sewing now...lol..will take a fresh look at this tomorrow.....

I thought that the name of the father of an illegitimate child has ALWAYS been able to be entered, as long as the father was present at the Registration, or swore an affidavit? Didnt know it ever changed? If so, Eddie was perhaps being a bit coy, still being married to his first wife, and wanting to see how it all wworked out with his 'housekeeper' before he committed himself in law! It may also have been that the Registrar advised him to do it this way 'just in case' (he ever found out he was NOT the father of this child, the mother's morals being suspect in the Registrar's eyes, if not in Eddie's). It was so extremely common for an unmarried mother to give the child the father's surname as a second forename, that I cannot help but think this was on the advice of a sympathetic Registrar: 'Well, my dear, don't cry, we cannot by Law put the father's name in the father's name box, but why don't you give the little chap a second name - what is the father's name? Ah, George Bloggs, well, why not call the little chap George Bloggs Smith, that way you are telling the world that you DO know who the father is' Aside - Parnell interests me greatly, I have Parnell as a woman's name, going through several generations and then disappearing - wonder if they flitted from Cheshire up your way? Olde Crone

Hi Olde Crone, Thankyou for your input..all help gratefully received! Something odd tho... Name of child on birth cert is Edward Parnell.. no mention of him (jnr)having the name of Davey or Davy. Birth registered ( someone kindly looked it up for me) as surname of Davy (no 'e') then Parnell Edward. Not sure where the kind person found the record but I ordered the cert under the name of Davy, Parnell Edward. But the name Davy doesn't appear on the cert apart from the mothers name, which is hard to read could be Davey with an 'e' Sue PS.... sorry didn't answer your question about Cheshire...lol.....anything is possible with this family!!....haven't yet found parents for Edward snr... so who knows!

Presume you saw this Edward Parnele Male Family -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: 05 AUG 1823 Taverham, Norfolk, England Christening: 10 AUG 1823 Taverham, Norfolk, England Death: Burial: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marriages: Spouse: Sarah Ann Fulcher Marriage: 24 MAY 1847 Drayton, Norfolk, England

Thanks Zoe , Yes, I have...I think this is the 1st Sarah Parnell, as on the 1851 census.... they had three children George 1844, Mary A 1853, Frederick 1854. By 1861 Edward snr id living with his 'housekeeper' , the three children above and Edward jnr (davy or parnell) and Emma (davy or parnell) 1871, it looks like Edward snr has married Sarah no 2, they have 3 more children. Don't suppose you could find a death for Sarah no 1?...I've been looking for months and come up with nothing.... or a marriage between Edward and Sarah no2. Thanks for your help, Sue

You say there is no mention of the name Dav(e)y on the cert, ''except for the mother's name''.....but if you think about it, if you look at any birth cert there is never a mention of the child's surname other than the names of the parents, even when there are two!!! Just off to see if I can find the bit about when illegitimate dad's were NOT allowed on the certs.............. (for Olde Crone) Merry

Olde Cronnnnnnnneeeeeee!!! I found it!! See: http://www.dixons(.)clara(.)co.uk/Certificates/births.htm#COL4 The time frame when dad's who were not married to the mother could not appear on the cert was 1850-1875. Quote: ''The early registrations between 1837 and approximately 1850 are a little mixed. The Act of Parliament of 1836 reads 'And it be enacted that the father or mother of every child born in England................shall within 42 days next after the day of every such birth give information upon being requested so to do to the Registrar, according to the best of his or her knowledge and belief of the several particulars hereby required to be known and registered touching the birth of such child provided always that it shall not be necessary to register the name of any father of a bastard child.' Now some registrars interpreted that quite freely and put father in even where the couple were not married and only mother or someone else was signing the register and some did not allow fathers details to be entered in the register. By about 1850 the situation had been clarified and the instructions read quite clearly 'No putative father is to be allowed to sign an entry in the character of 'Father' '. From that time, therefore there are 2 kinds of entries in the register (1) Where the parents were married to one another, fathers details must be entered in the register and only one parent will sign the register (or some other informant) (2) Where the parents were not married to one another there will be blanks in Column 4 (fathers name) and Column 6 (his occupation). This situation lasted until the Registration Act of 1875 where the instruction read 'The putative father of an illegitimate child cannot be required as father to give information respecting the birth. The name, surname and occupation of the putative father of an illegitimate child must not be entered except at the joint request of the father and mother; in which case both the father and mother must sign the entry as informants'. '' Sorry, it's a bit long!!! Merry

Thats intresting Merry and got me totally confused! My GG Grandfather was registered in his fathers surname 1872 by his unmarried mother. How did she manage that? Jacqui

Do you mean they pretended to be married? (Or should I say....SHE pretended to be married!) Very commonplace to do that!!! Merry