Genealogy Chat

Greenwich out pensioner. Until 1853, service in the Royal Navy did not automatically qualify for a retirement pension, and seamen did not have permanent employment in the Royal Navy - they signed on to the books of a specific ship for the duration of the commission (voyage), and were paid off when she returned to the home port. 'Continuous service' was introduced in 1853, with seamen enlisting for a 10 year term during which they would be paid whether or not actually serving on a ship; by extending this to 20 or 25 years, they then qualified for a pension as well. Prior to this, the Admiralty paid pensions only in special cases - mainly wounded officers, and widows and orphans of officers killed in action. Pensions for wounded seamen, and seamen's widows and orphans, were provided by naval charities. Sailors had to pay in to their pension fund whilst serving. After 21 years from age 20 they could qualify. (Today 22 years from age 18) Records of seamen's service to qualify for a Greenwich pension are a useful way of finding the service history of a sailor pre-1853, which otherwise could be found only in the musters and pay-books of individual ships. When a sailor applied to Greenwich Hospital, the clerks in the Navy Pay Office checked his service in the pay-books, and produced a certificate of service. These records are at the Public Record Office, Kew, London, together with some records of applicants to Greenwich Hospital (and the committee's decisions), and payment of Greenwich out-Pensions. Clive Buckle

Typical Admiralty - penny pinching!

Thanks for that Clive,as I have a g.g.grandfather who lived in Cornwall in early 19th century,who was a Greenwich Out Pensioner,and haven't found out much more about him yet,except that he had been a seaman. Brenda x x

Hi Clive, thanks for that, my 3 x grandfather Frances Tivey was a greenwich pensioner.........before the 1853 date you mention. he was born c1811 and on his daughters birth cert it says RM which I presume is royal marines? are the records for them in same place? I did try online search at TNA but no luck but wasnt sure if all records were indexed sandie

A quick answer before I start looking. I very much doubt whether RM stood for Royal Marine when coupled with being a Greenwich out pensionner but will check. There was some funny goings on around that time. A colonel Royal Marines was a sort of honary title except it carried a salary. At the same time I think the marines were still the Duke of York's Light Infantry. Despite rumours (from my children) I was not a cabin boy to Nelson at Trafalgar. Clive

Clearly a senior moment. More about the bootnecks (which shows I was partly wrong) In 1755 fifty new companies of marines were raised, grouped into three divisions, Chatham, Plymouth and Portsmouth, under the control of the Admiralty. The number of companies grew over the years and the marines were never disbanded again. In 1802 the corps was designated the Royal Marines by King George III on account of their distinguished service during the war with France. A fourth division was created at Woolwich from 1805 to 1869. In 1804 marine companies of artillery were created which became a distinct division in 1859. This was called the Royal Marine Artillery and was based at Eastney. In 1855 the infantry companies were designated the Royal Marine Light Infantry. In 1923 both these branches were amalgamated as the Corps of Royal Marines. The Royals have a museum at Eastney Clive

Hi Clive just rechecked records on daughters in 1840 it says marine, on sons in 1842 it says corporal RN but on 1841 census it says greenwich pensioner and on their marriage certificates it says pension RN sandie

Brenda and Sandra There should be some records of your men at National Archives. Not online though!

thanks Ann...........am going to try for a record hunt in the archives this summer.............Have been to LMA and FRC and really enjoyed searching being in Oxfordshire have to save up first! sandie

Essex Links, My g.g.grandfather must have also worked from East Stonehouse/Plymouth,as the family ended up living in Torpoint,which is just across from Plymouth. A few years ago I went there,and walked along the street where my g.grandmother was born,and saw the cottages,which had lovely sea views. I talked to some of the residents,and they said that they believed the cottages were sort of Alms houses. Unfortunately,these days it will be difficult for me to get to the National Archives,as I live in N. Wales,and my husband is on 24 hour oxygen. However maybe sometime they may get the searches on line. Brenda x x

Clive, I wonder if you can shed any light on the initials 'P.N.' which were set against the word 'mariner' for one John Cummin in the parish records of Greenwich showing the baptisms of 3 children there 1818-1827. Definitely NOT R.N---Royal Navy, but P.N. This is not in the address column, but next to the occupation i.e. mariner [from where who knows!!!!]. He married there, but no idea where he came from--died pre-1841. Wendy

Thank you, Clive, for the really interesting information in your first post on this thread. I have a direct ancestor (Thomas SYRETT, born 1778 in Beccles, Suffolk) who turns up on the 1841 census in the infirmary of the Royal Hospital, Greenwich. His occupation is recorded as 'Surgery Mate - Seaman'. He died at the hospital in 1847 (confirmed by his will). Interestingly, there's a Thomas SYRETT (not a particularly common name!) listed as a royal marine on the Trafalgar Roll - but, unfortunately, no record of his birthplace to confirm if he's 'mine'! (It looks as if none of the RMs on the Roll had their place of birth noted.) I know that in the late 1820s and 1830s he was a shop-keeper in Great Yarmouth and then London - was it common for someone to leave the Navy, go into trade, and then end up at the RH? Also, would there have been a certificate of service prepared for him at Greenwich? Any help/advice you can give regarding the above would be greatly appreciated! Many thanks. Penny

First a bit more history: Greenwich Hospital was built for seamen in 1695. Seamen contributed sixpence a month from their pay towards the upkeep of the hospital. Pensioners were admitted from 1705 and originally wore a uniform of dark gray with a blue lining and brass buttons. The colour of the uniforms changed to brown and then blue. Families of pensioners were not allowed to live with them in the Hospital so many lived in the Greenwich area. By the 19th century it was found preferable to pay out pensions and in 1869 the Hospital closed. I was fortunate enough to be working in Greenwich Hospital in January 1957. The Painted Hall is very beautiful, well worth a visit, and large. There was the last(?) of the bad fogs that year and you could not see across the hall because of the fog (Yes inside the building!). Clive

Nothing to do with the thread other than the Maritime Museum is in what was the Greenwich Hospital. Cold enough to freeze the balls of a brass monkey. The popular explanation is that warships in the 18th century stored their shot on brass racks called monkeys. In the cold weather the brass contracted causing the shot to fall onto the deck hence the expression. However although we cannot offer an alternative explanation we do not think this theory is tenable. Most of the round shot was carried in racks or 'garlands' which were either wood or rope. No nautical dictionaries give any reference to the brass monkey although monkey was a term used for all sorts of other things. The use of brass is also questionable since it was a fairly expensive commodity and there seems to be no reason for its use when wood sufficed. Clive (I was looking up P.N. as requested lol)

I suppose a PN might have been a Prig Napper (horse thief ! lol). take a look at http://www.amlwchhistory(.)co(.)uk/data/occupations.htm PUREFINDER - old women and young girls who went about the streets gathering dog droppings which were used for tanning leather There are other interesting jobs too! Clive

Clive , This is a most interesting thread. Any more memories of your time in Greenwich? Brenda x x

To answer serious questions first. PN - possibly a pensioner nurse? The old boys who lived in had an army of staff to care for them. Greenwich pensioners. They were paid so little if just amputees the navy had a policy that required ships cooks to be a Greenwich pensioner. (They did not need to be able to cook!) The majority somehow managed to find a second job. Yes it would have been possible to be in and out of a navy job whilst a pensioner (full time employment for sailors did not come in until 1853.) Memories of Greenwich. Two striking ones. Firstly I came back to UK from working in the Med and went to Greenwich. Shower at tea time and change shirt, shower at night. Both shirts really grimed at cuffs a collar - yuk! The air was filthy. Secondly on arrival at Greenwich I was told the chapel had just been restored. The story went the painters were so impressed that when the money ran out before the cieling was done they gave their labour! Clive

Pre my time in Greenwich (and note I was a worker there not a pensioner.) I was wearing my pretty blue uniform for the coronation. We were street lining close to the Houses of Parliament when it came on to rain. By the time 'Sir' noticed there were about 5 of the crowd under each of our oilskins. Bad luck lads! By the end of the day the water was dripping out of the sleeves and trouser bottoms. We did get our one good meal that day from the army. Little soldier type came round with a hand cart. In a paper bag was a Mars bar, an apple, a bar of chocolate and a bottle of drink. Not even the army could screw that up! A few hours earlier in the half light of pre-dawn; army type slaps something on to my plate. I start to add milk and sugar. What are you doing? I'm not a Scot, I like milk and sugar with my porridge. That's not porridge that's scrambled egg! Even the young can go off their food sometimes! lol Clive

The record was not prepared at Greenwich for anyone wishing to qualify as a pensioner but up in London with the bean counters. It is quite interesting to see how they raised money to pay for Greenwich - a lot of it came from what I would call dubious sources including 'unclaimed prize money' which I suspect was money due to a sailor who had died before collecting the dosh! Clive

Hi Clive, would greenwich pensioners who lived out have worn the uniforms? I know my Francis Tivey and his family moved from Pembrokeshire port area to Greenwich guess that was because of his pensioner status. Guess if he hadnt I would be Welsh instead of English!! sandie