Genealogy Chat

I don't know why they waited until they were 50 and 51 before they got married - there was no monetary reason and I haven't found any previous marriages preventing the marriage. My only thought is that they wanted to be married before they returned to Devon from NZ - in about 1911?

Thanks SylviainCanada
I know that Susan Jane emigrated to NZ in November 1873 - she was with my great grandfather and another young baby living as a married couple (although they didn't actually get married until 1904 in NZ)

What I would like to find out is more about her family, where were they when she was in the workhouse? What happened to William John Perring (the baby she had in the workhouse) I haven't been able to find any record of him dying. He wasn't with them when they emigrated to NZ two years later. Did he die? was he brought up by some-one else?

There was some kind of scandal with the relationship between Sarah Jane and Roger Bond Luscombe (my great-grandfather) with her being "beneath his station" Although as far as I can tell he was just from a respectable farming family - not gentry or anything like that.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

you get more information to start with from the various censuses

1861 Census

Name: Susan Jane Perring
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: 1854
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: William Perring
Mother's name: Susan Perring
Gender: Female
Where born: Slapton, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Slapton
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Registration district: Kingsbridge
Sub-registration district: Blackawton
ED, institution, or vessel: 6

Household schedule number: 45
Piece: 1422
Folio: 67
Page Number: 9

William Perring 42 b.ca 1819, Slapton, Farm Labourer
Susan Perring 37 b.ca 1824, West Allington, Devon
Susan Jane Perring 7
Samuel George Perring 5 b.ca 1856, Slapton
Sarah Ann Perring 1 b.ca 1860, Slapton

Address:- Slapton Village


In 1871, she was in the Workhouse, age 18 with her son

I've not yet found her in 1881, but in 1891 it looks as if only the servants were at home on Census night ..............

1891 Census

Name: Susan Perring
Age: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Devon, England
Civil Parish: Ventnor
Ecclesiastical parish: St Catherine
Town: Ventnor
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England

Registration district: Isle Of Wight
ED, institution, or vessel: 5

Piece: 895
Folio: 121
Page Number: 48

Mary Perkins 68 Housekeeper
Charlotte Crump 42 Cook
Emma Hopwood 34 Parlour Maid
Susan Perring 33 House Maid

Address:- Ashley House, Hambrough (?? sp) Road

I have received the wedding certificate of Roger Bond Luscombe and Susan Jane Perring. Her father was William Perring and her mother was Susan Perring (born Whitting) Susan Jane was born in Slapen, Devon in 1853 (aged 51 at time of wedding in 1904) I would be very interested to find out more about Susan Jane - does anybody know how to get information from the time that she was in the workhouse? Also what happened to her child that she had in the workhouse? Would appreciate any suggestions!

Related thread:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1358400

There are registers at the GRO for births and deaths at sea, on board British registered aircraft, and on board British registered hovercrafts, but no registers for marriage.
No British merchant ship was a registered place for marriage, which is where English marrs must take place.
Marrs under Scots law have been recently permitted on board vessels in Scottish territorial waters. This change occurred in the last 10y, I think - I forget exactly when. The marr is to be registered in the coastal parish off which the marr took place.

Thanks AustinQ. Would appreciate that greatly and look forward to reading that! I have seen a brief note to that effect on a piece of paper somewhere (re. Dorothy - having 2 children before later marrying a George Gillard)

It looks as if Sarah Georgina Henrietta Luscombe b.1873 may be the Georgina on the ship with Roger Bond and Susan Jane. I have her on our family tree as Etty b.1874? Will research further to verify. And it is the same Sarah that married Robert Nicolls in 1892. Thanks for that lead.

Roger Bond also had a sister named Sarah Georgina Hingston(?) b.1869

Thanks again
Sheryl

I've just started to look through the papers for older clippings that may give more information on the Luscombes of Woodleigh- there are a few and I don't have time today to go through all of them, but will let you know if anything interesting crops up.

This one is a HUGE article re William's daughter Dorothy- she had got her self in the 'family way' at age 17 (in 1838) and she stated a man called Edward Prettejohn was the father.

Western Times - Saturday 01 August 1840

Ahh! some very interesting information here. Thanks to all.

I have ordered the marriage certificate of Roger Bond and Susan Jane so hopefully soon we will have confirmation if we have the correct Susan Jane Perring. The fact that she had an earlier child is fascinating - why would he have not gone with them to New Zealand in 1873?

And there's still the mystery of what happened to Georgina Luscombe who was the 6 month old child on the ship....? If she had died on board would that be on the NZ records or the UK? Can't find a death record or a birth record for her in either country!

The farm was Higher Hendham, Woodleigh. I have seen that there are converted barns at that address operating as holiday lets and have emailed the current owners hoping to get more information. I would like to see what was the original farm house that the family would have lived in. Any suggestions as to how I would find out about property records? ie. when the farm went out of the family ownership? When the family first purchased it? William Luscombe (b1770) and Dorothy Luscombe (nee Torring b.1779) were the first of our family to move there. They married in Aveton Gifford on 31/12/1801 - their 2 youngest children were born in Woodleigh in 1821 & 1823.

As far as I can see nobody in the family have been able to trace the Luscombe line further back than William. We don't have his birth place or his parents/siblings. Any suggestions on where to go in this respect??

The purchaser of Combe Royal was actually Roger Bond Luscombe, I guess the 'John" was a misprint? A John Luscombe owned it earlier.

Cheers
Sheryl

On the passenger list to New Zealand dated 2nd November 1873 Roger and Susan's daughter is listed as 1 month old. I don't see a matching birth under Perring or Luscombe. So was she born on the ship? Or as on a tree on Ancestry perhaps this is her birth:

Birth:
Name: Sarah Georgina H Luscombe
Registration Year: 1873
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Exeter
Inferred County: Devon
Volume: 5b Page: 88

The tree on Ancestry has her birth as 13th August 1873.

And marriage:
New Zealand, Marriage Index, 1840-1934
Name: Sarah Georgina Henrietta Luscombe
Gender: Female
Marriage Year: 1892
Relation: Bride
Spouse: Robert Nicholls
Folio Number: 1563
---------------------------------------------

There's a divorce listed in Manawatu Standard 1912 of a Robert and Sarah Nicholls- no idea if it's the same couple.

Exeter and Plymouth Gazette - Friday 01 November 1912

The estate of an elizabethan mansion known as Combe Royal, situate near Kingsbridge came under the hammer....bidding was brisk and, from the first bid of £10,000 quickly rose by bids of £500 to £14,500. As this did not meet the reserve the property was withdrawn. The mansion and the estate were subsequently offered without the farm. The bidding opened at £6000 and rose to £10,750, at which figure Mr John Luscombe of New Zealand became the purchaser. Mr Luscombe is a son of Mr Henry Luscombe of Hendham, Woodleigh who is well known in the district.

The William John Perring that married Lydia was born in South Milton to William J and Mary E Perring. In 1911 he's with Lydia and he's listed as age 35- so doesn't look to be correct William.

---------------------------------------------------

The summary of Roger Bond's Will is on page one from the newspaper article I put up- interesting that he leaves money to all his children except his son Roger- so maybe the court case was the reason?

Devon Baptisms Transcription

First name(s) William John
Last name Perring
Birth year -
Baptism year 1871
Baptism date 27 Jan 1871
Denomination Anglican
Baptism place Churchstow
Mother's first name(s) Susan Jane
County Devon
Archive South West Heritage Trust
Archive reference 3078A/PR/1/3
Record set Devon Baptisms
Category Life Events (BDMs)
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from United Kingdom

from image:-
Address:- Union House <<<<< ie, the Workhouse
Mother:- Single Woman



I wonder if this was William John, having Banns called in 1889??? Whatever, the entry is crossed out, which I think indicates that the marriage did not take place. The Banns never show any indication of parentage


Devon Banns Registers 1538-1915 Transcription

First name(s) William John
Last name Perring
Banns year 1889
Banns date 16 Jan 1889
Parish Strete, St Michael
Spouse's first name Elizabeth Jane
Spouse's last name Dawson
Residence Blackawton St Michael
Spouse's residence Stoke Damerell Devonport
County Devon
Denomination Anglican
Country England
Archive South West Heritage Trust
Archive reference 3039A/PR/1/4
Record set Devon Banns Registers 1538-1915
Category Life Events (BDMs)
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from United Kingdom


but then .................

Is this also him??


England & Wales marriages 1837-2008 Transcription

First name(s) WILLIAM JOHN
Last name PERRING
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1905
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ WILLIAM JOHN PERRING married
LYDIA ANN JOHNS
District KINGSBRIDGE
District number -
County Devon
Country England
Volume 5B
Page 441
Record set England & Wales marriages 1837-2008
Category Life Events (BDMs)
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from United Kingdom


The Banns show that he is a Bachelor, she a Spinster, and both "of this parish, but no more than that


Devon Banns Registers 1538-1915 Transcription

First name(s) William John
Last name Perring
Banns year 1905
Banns date 22 Oct 1905
Parish South Milton
Spouse's first name Lydia Ann
Spouse's last name Johns
Residence South Milton All Saints
Spouse's residence South Milton All Saints
County Devon
Denomination Anglican
Country England
Archive South West Heritage Trust
Archive reference 3036A/PR/1/6
Record set Devon Banns Registers 1538-1915
Category Life Events (BDMs)
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from United Kingdom



The problem is that I cannot find him in any census other than the 1871.

There is a William J Perring who seems to be a miner in Wales in 1911, born ca 1869 in Devon, but that doesn't seem to fit with William John. The "Welsh" William Perring also says he was born in Brixham on the 1901 Census. so that doesn't fit either.

IF we have the correct Susan Jane, then this is her baptism, from FindMyPast .....


Devon Baptisms Transcription

First name(s) Susan Jane
Last name Perring
Birth year -
Baptism year 1853
Baptism date 03 Apr 1853
Denomination Anglican
Baptism place Slapton
Father's first name(s) William
Mother's first name(s) Susan
County Devon
Archive South West Heritage Trust
Archive reference 3040A/PR/1/6
Record set Devon Baptisms
Category Life Events (BDMs)
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from United Kingdom

from image:-

Father occupation:- Labourer


you need to buy the marriage certificate from 1904, to see who she names as her father.

BTW ........

I do not think the 1871 Census is confusing, as AustinQ suggested ............... I think that what happened is that the gave the wrong name for their youngest daughter!!

In 1861, William and Susan have a 1 year old daughter Sarah Ann, b.ca 1860

In 1871, there is no Sarah Ann but there is Susan age 12, b. ca 1859

Those two girls actually seem to be the same child


I think the Perring parents simply made a mistake when naming their children to the enumerator :-)

According to the image of that 1871 Census ................... Susan Perring, b.ca 1853, Slapton, Devon, was Unmarried, and a Farm Servant. She had a son, William John Perring, 2 months old, b.ca 1871, Churchstow ... which is where the address for the Work House.

That presumably is the reaosn she was in there ........... possibly only because she needed the hospital section of the place, but possibly also because she could not go back to her place of work of home.

But I don't know Devon very well, so I don't know how close Slapton is to Woodleigh or Kingsbridge.

it might interesting for you to look at this site, and see what relevance it has to your Luscombes

http://boards.ancestry.ca/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=68&p=surnames.luscombe

Hi Sheryl

someone else shoudl be able to tell you how to get the will, I've never ordered one.


As far as the farm that Henry Luscombe had, you can get some idea from what is stated on several censuses

In 1841, he was living with his father, a Farmer, in Hendham

In 1851, he said he was a farmer of 284 acres, employing 3 labourers

In 1861, a farmer of 284 acres, employing 3 labourers and 3 boys

In 1871, a farmer of 284 acres, and employed 2 labourers. Presumably his sons also worked on the farm

In 1881, at Hendham Farm, 281 acres, employing 2 men and 4 boys


so it was quite a large farm, that he might have taken over from his father


I wonder if this listing for Hendham House, Farm House, might not be the Luscombe farm???? Just a suggestion!

http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-99574-hendham-house-woodleigh-devon#.VtPJvkBKrTR

Hi SylviainCanada,
Thanks so much for this research. Roger jnr did return to England (not sure when?) and was staying with his grandfather, Henry. The court case of the unpaid clothes I see was in Ashburton which is in NZ so he was still in NZ in 1897. He obviously arrived sometime after 1901. Yes it would be very interesting to see a copy of Henry's will - I am interested to find out what kind of farm it was, whether it was a substantial property and to see what kind of standing the family would have had in the community? That might make sense of the story of Susan Jane Perring's 'being of a lower station in life' and their marriage not being approved of?

Would you know how I could obtain a copy of Henry's will? and also do you know how I could find out more details about the Susan Jane Perring in the workhouse?

When Roger Bond died in 1925 his son Roger was living at 101 Church Street, Kingsbridge and Dodbrooke.

could this be the Roger Luscombe who got into trouble with payment or non-payment of a debt in 1897??? Son of Roger Bond, but staying with granfather Henry

1911 Census

Name: Roger Luscombe
Age in 1911: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation to Head: Grandson
Gender: Male
Birth Place: New Zealand
Civil Parish: Woodleigh and Loddiswell
Search Photos: Search for 'Woodleigh and Loddiswell' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Street address: Hendham, Woodleigh, East Allington
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Assistant in Business
Registration district: Kingsbridge
Registration District Number: 274
Sub-registration district: Kingsbridge
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 93
Piece: 12886

Henry Luscombe 87
Mary Luscombe 53 Daughter, Single
Georgina Luscombe 42 b.ca 1869, Woodleigh, Daughter, Single
Roger Luscombe 32
Rosina Davis 27 Servant
Florence Stevens 16 Servant
Harry Codd 78 Boarder
Arthur Stentiford 41 Servant
George Tayler 16 Servant



Roger is not with them in 1901 ............

Name Age
Henry Luscombe 77
Mary Luscombe 74
Mary Luscombe 43
Georgina Luscombe 39
Susan Morgan 72
Susan Morgan 52
Henry Codd 52
William Stevens 15
George Stevens 11