Genealogy Chat

I think I might have gone horribly wrong somewhere but can't work out where :-S
William Howard married an Ann, not sure of 2nd name or when. (Hang on; it does get better.. I promise!)
Ann born c1799 in Northwich & had 5 children ~
William
John
Sarah Ann
James
Edwin Victor Howard (1845)
They lived in Toxteth Park for some of the time.
I can find Ann and children in 1841 & 1851 censuses but then in 1861 Edwin and Sarah Ann are living with their uncle, Isaac born 1810.
I found Isaac Howard born in Runcorn 1810, who had a brother William born 1803.
However I can't find William on any of the censuses, living with his family or not. He was listed on Edwin's marriage certificate (1867) as an engineer and on John's marriage certificate in 1884 he is listed as an engineer, deceased.. Can anyone help me see where he went?!
I've been looking at a lot of different trees and genealogy sites but they all contradict one another :-(

And I realise now, that I think i posted this in the wrong forum :-|
It's supposed to be in "Finding Ancestors"

that's OK ..... we can help on here, unless you have already re-posted on Finding Ancestors?



If you have ......... please delete this one

for our information ........................ I assume this is the 1851 Census??


1851 Census

Name: Ann Howard
Age: 52
Estimated birth year: abt 1799
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Northwich
Civil Parish: Toxteth Park
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Baptist
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 1al

Household schedule number: 62
Piece: 2187
Folio: 540
Page Number: 14

Ann Howard 52
William Howard 15 b.ca 1836, Runcorn, Cheshire, Apprentice Carpenter
Sarah N Howard 9 b.ca 1842, Runcorn, Scholar
John Howard 13 b.ca 1838, Liverpool, Cheshire (!!!! -- that's what it says!!!), Scholar
James Howard 8 b.ca 1843, Runcorn, Scholar
Edwin Howard 5 b.ca 1846, Liverpool, Lancashire, Scholar

Address:- Hughes Street 3, Court 5

do you have this???


from ancestry ...........


Liverpool, England, Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Edwin Victor Howard
Birth Date: 4 Sep 1845
Baptism Date: 30 Jan 1898
Parish: Toxteth, St Clement
Father's name: William Howard
Mother's name: Ann Howard
Reference Number: 283 CLE/2/7


from image

Baptised as an ADULT

Born:- 4/9/45
Address:- 17 Solway Street
Occupation:- Mariner


no occupation, or any other information, given for William and Ann

I did notice that on the 1851 Census, in the column for married, single etc ................. it did NOT say either Mar, S or W .................. it seemed to be a U

indicating ?????unknown?

I note that several Public Trees on ancestry have decided that William Howard was married to Ann Ball ..............


this seems to be the basis for their belief ...............


Liverpool, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921


Name: William Howard
Marriage Date: 26 Dec 1825
Parish: Liverpool, St Nicholas
Spouse's Name: Ann Ball
Reference Number: 283 NIC/3/13


from the image .................

William is a Labourer


Labourer does not, to me, seem to fit later descriptions of him as an Engineer


But also .......... William born ca 1836 appears to be the eldest child .................. and a marriage in 1825 is very early for the first child to be born about 11 years later



Everything and anything is possible, BUT .................


I think someone found a convenient marriage, added it to their tree, and others have copied it, willy-nilly, without checking!

The 1851 Census shows that Sarah N Howard was said to be born in Runcorn


Looking at the image, I think that her middle initial might actually be "A" ............. it is unlike the initial letter A of her mother's name, but very similar to the A for Ann about 8 lines up the page, and to the A of Ap. Carpenter for her brother William



Going to Cheshire bmds ....


http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/

I find the following registrations for a Sarah Howard in Runcorn during the years 1840-1845

Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1840 to 1845
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference

HOWARD Sarah Ann Runcorn Halton PRICHARD RUN/4/68

HOWARD Sarah Runcorn Halton BUSHEL RUN/4/38




IF we take it to be Sarah Ann Howard .................... then that first registration appears as if it COULD be hers, and her mother's maiden name is indicated as Prichard




HOWEVER ......................


familysearch has a William Howard married an Elizabeth Pritchard in Runcorn in 1840


mentioned in the record of William Howard and Elizabeth Pritchard

Name: William Howard
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Pritchard
Event Date: 1840
Event Place: Runcorn Parish
Father's Name: George Howard
Spouse's Father's Name: Thomas Pritchard
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M75105-0 , System Origin: England-VR , GS Film number: 1836130 , Reference ID: 2:3PTQTTM



and a Sarah A Howard appears on the 1861 Census living in Runcorn with father William, Linen and Woollen Draper, and mother Elizabeth



so ........ probably NOT yours!

Thank you for answering.. I've been going round in circles with this! I wasn't sure about the marriage to Anne Ball because it seemed a bit too early for the children's births as you've said... I have found christening records for the children all listing an ann and a William as parents..
In 1861 I found Edwin and Sarah ann living with their uncle, Isaac Howard.. It has Sarah ann listed as married with the name of either Wells or Wills but I couldn't find a marriage for her?

Births of children which I found on christening indexes..
William 1834
John 1836
Sarah 1840
James 1843
Edwin victor 1845
There was another Sarah Ann born in Runcorn in 1842 but I think it said her parents were Elizabeth and William

I traced Isaac to see if I could find anything on William.. Born in Runcorn 1810.. That's how I came to believe William was born in Runcorn in 1803 to a john Howard and an Ann, possibly shaw, according to some trees but some also contradict this

Did any of the children born after 1837 have their births registered?

Please post the 1841 for our info

FMP's version of 1851

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Hughes Street 3 Court, Toxteth Park Extra Parochial, West Derby, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Ann Howard Head Widow Female 52 1799 - Northwich, Cheshire, England Transcription
William Howard Son - Male 15 1836 Ap Carpenter Runcorn, Cheshire, England Transcription
Sarah T Howard Daughter - Female 9 1842 Scholar Runcorn, Cheshire, England Transcription
John Howard Son - Male 13 1838 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire, England Transcription
James Howard Son - Male 8 1843 Scholar Runcorn, Cheshire, England Transcription
Edwin Howard Son Unmarried Male 5 1846 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Sarah's second initial is not a 'T' when one looks at the image

Is this the same family in 1841 please?

Ann Howard
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1806
Gender: Female
Where born: Cheshire, England
Civil Parish: Runcorn
Hundred: Bucklow
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

View image
Registration district: Runcorn
Sub-registration district: Runcorn
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 95
Book: 20
Folio: 7
Page Number: 8
Household Members:
Name Age
Ann Howard 35
William Howard 7
John Howard 5
Sarah Howard 2

For our info, the 1861 referred to above

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
6, Marshall Street, Toxteth Park, West Derby, Lancashire, England


First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Isaac Haward Head Married Male 50 1811 Mariner Chester, Cheshire, England Transcription
Mary Haward Wife Married Female 49 1812 - Chester, Cheshire, England Transcription
Louisa Haward Daughter Unmarried Female 16 1845 Scholar Chester, Cheshire, England Transcription
William Haward Son - Male 13 1848 Scholar Chester, Cheshire, England Transcription
George Haward Son - Male 8 1853 Scholar Cheshire, England Transcription
Elizabeth Jones Daughter Married Female 24 1837 Mariners Wife Cheshire, England Transcription
Mary Elizth Jones Granddaughter - Female 5 1856 Scholar Ellesmere, Cheshire, England Transcription
Sarah Ann Wells Niece Married Female 21 1840 Marines Wife Ellesmere, Cheshire, England Transcription
Edwin Howard Nephew Unmarried Male 14 1847 Mariner Chester, Cheshire, England

Isaac's marriage - unfortunately too early to be of any use

Name: Isaac Howard
Spouse's Name: Mary Nield
Event Date: 1835
Event Place: Runcorn Parish, Chester Co.
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M75104-4 ,

Name: Isaac Howard
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 15 Apr 1810
Event Place: All Saints, Runcorn, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 26 Mar 1810
Father's Name: John Howard
Mother's Name: Ann


Name: William Howard
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 05 Mar 1805
Event Place: All Saints, Runcorn, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 20 Mar 1803
Father's Name: John Howard
Mother's Name: Ann

Yes they are the census records that I have found.. sorry it has taken me a while to reply! As you can see, I just can't find William on any of these records..
I wondered if Ann might have died between 1851 & 1861 and that is why the family is suddenly split up.

Can anyone find a record for Sarah Ann marrying and becoming Sarah Ann Wells? I can't seem to find anything?

Deaths Jun 1854 (>99%)
Howard Ann W Derby 8b 263
Howard Ann W Derby 8b 257

Deaths Jun 1855 (>99%)
Howard Ann W Derby 8b 299

Deaths Sep 1857 (>99%)
Howard Ann W Derby 8b 278


Deaths Mar 1861 (>99%)
HOWARD Ann W Derby 8b 339


Not a lot of help, as, of course, they pre-date the inclusion on the index of the age at death.

Unfortunately, LancsBMD haven't got round to transcribing Liverpool deaths for the time-scale