Genealogy Chat

Kim,
many thanks for all that work, very much appreciated, and many thanks also for the web sight..........

John :-)

You could also try

www.cornwall-opc-database.org

another free site with lots of data transcriptions. The 1781 baptism in St Germans is on there, so are a lot of Mary Couches :-P

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/stokedamerelopc

Enables you to ask for look-ups in the baptism and burial registers for the early years of the 19thc, so you may be able to see if a wife (or wives) died.

Several William Colley marriages in Devon on the FMP site:
William Colley & Priscilla Tressions in Stoke Damerel 19 Sep 1759
William Colley & Mary Westcott in Charles, Plymouth 27 Mar 1808
William Colley & Ann Palmer in Stoke Damerel 31 Oct 1824
William Colley & Mary Couch in Stoke Damerel 1 Dec 1827
William Colley (son of John) & Elizabeth Miller (dau of John) in Stoke Damerel 9 Jun 1840

If the birthdate of 1786 is correct, I would have thought the 1808 marriage is a contender. Possibly Ann Palmer and/or Mary Couch were second/third wives - unfortunately, the records on FMP do not state whether the participants were widowed. :-(

Cheers for that info Sylvia.
John

The problem, John, is that there is no proof of that 1781 birth, other than the one record.

It is true that it is an extracted record, taken from the actual parish record.


BUT Colley appears to be a very common name in Cornwall and Devon, and we have no other suggestion that William's father was called John!



sylvia

William down as married on 1861 census, I have him down as getting married in 1855, so that fits, ending up with two children, Mary Maria and William Henry...
John

For information, here is the marriage of William Colley


Marriages Mar 1855 (>99%)

>>>>COLLEY William Liskeard 5c 114
GODFREY Jane Liskeard 5c 114
Hooper John Liskeard 5c 114
>>>>WELSH Anna Maria Liskeard 5c 114


He is with Anne M on the 1871 Census




sylvia

What you say Sylvia sounds logical... I'm looking at your John Colley and Charity Couch, and MCs William babtised in 1781 with same parents..
William married 1820 had son William in 1822 re-married in 1827 to Mary.. just assuming ...John

This guy looks as though he could possibly be the Wiiliam Colley, age 20 on the 1841. That William was a Carpenter, so is this guy

1861 England Census

Name: William Colley
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Devonport, Devon, England

Civil parish: Pelynt
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England

Registration district: Liskeard
Sub-registration district: Looe

John Hambly 33
Jane Hambly 37
William Colley 40 Married, Carpenter
Christopher Stephens 22


and in 1851

1851 Census

Name: William Colley
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818
Relation: Lodger
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Devonport, Devon, England

Civil parish: Liskeard
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England

Registration district: Liskeard
Sub-registration district: Liskeard

William Hick 42
Alice Hick 50
Robert Bath 22
William Hicks 28
Ann Hicks 33
Henry Harvey 42
John Trenouth 10
George Reed 22
William Colley 33 Unmarried, Journeyman Carpenter
George Mogg 24





sylvia

I have a thesis to put forward to you ......... and you might not like it!!!


BOTH William and Mary were of somewhat advanced age for a first marriage in 1827

Mary was seemingly born around 1790 ...... which makes her about 37 on marriage

William was seemingly born 1785 +/- 5 years ............... and that makes him around 40 on marriage

Those ages match up with the ages on the 1841 and 1851 censuses.

I suggest that Mary at least might have been married before ......... and that Couch might well NOT be her maiden name.

William might also have been married before ......... OR he might have been in the services (eg, the navy) as a ship's carpenter (carpenter being his occupation on the 1841 Census).




Note that the son William Colley was age 20 on the 1841 Census ....... which means he was born around 1821. That pre-dates the marriage with Mary Couch

He could be a child of William's first marriage



or of course, he could be Mary's child adopted by William


BUT if we have the correct marriage date, he really can't be the child of William and Mary Couch.




sylvia

Got carried away there and pressed the SUBMIT key too soon !!!!!
Married Anne Marie Welsh in 1855 in Liskeard...

John

Had Internet problems, hence the delay in getting back.....
The William Colley & Mary Couch marriage of 1827 was handed to me by a member of the wife's family. [Long gone now - not the wife but the member of the family !]
Sue's William, Mary and son looked 'spot on'.
Karen's Mary Colley [ pauper ] also looked to be in the right place....
Looking through the FreeBDM isn't exactly my forte, but that was where I spent most of last night...
What I have is - William Colley 1786 married Mary Couch in 1827, born in 1791. They has a son called William in 1822 [Oooop's, 1822, that's not right], Parents were married in 1827 - I'll get back on that... Anyway he married a Anne Marie Welsh

Had Internet problems, hence the delay in getting back.....
The William Colley & Mary Couch marriage of 1827 was handed to me by a member of the wife's family. [Long gone now - not the wife but the member of the family !]
Sue's William, Mary and son looked 'spot on'.
Karen's Mary Colley [ pauper ] also looked to be in the right place....
Looking through the FreeBDM isn't exactly my forte, but that was where I spent most of last night...
What I have is - William Colley 1786 married Mary Couch in 1827, born in 1791. They has a son called William in 1822 [Oooop's, 1822, that's not right], Parents were married in 1827 - I'll get back on that... Anyway he married a Anne Marie Welsh

Very interesting!!!!


Public Family trees on ancestry shoudl be trusted without checking everyhting very carefully .... they so often do not have documentary evidence, and people just copy information willy-nilly, so one wrong piece of data may be copied and copied multiple times


HOWEVER


re that baptism that MC found ............ a William Colley baptised 1781 in Cornwall with parents John Colley and Charity


There are about 12 trees on ancestry that have the following. One of the trees says the source was from the International Genealogical Index ...... which is basically the same place that MC found it. The others have all seemingly copied their information from that one.

So there is absolutely NO real evidence that this is YOUR William Colley.


But note the mother's surname!



William Colley
Birth 1781 in St Germans, Cornwall, , England
Death

Parents

John Colley
1744 – 1785

Charity Couch
1749 –


Siblings

John Couch Colley
1775 –

Henry Colley
1778 –

Edward Colley
1783 –




sylvia

Just a note that on the 1841 Census, neither William nor Mary were born in Devon.

Son William was born in Devon.



sylvia

Actually, the census asked how old people were in years, it is the modern day transcriber who translates age into birth year.

Because of the variance in time of census vs birth date, there will always be a variance in age between censuses .... and in reality as well.

I beleive that only children below the age of about 5 will show an accurate age on a census ....... and that doesn't always apply either!


You should always assume that the age given on a census is plus or minus 2 years ........ and then also assume that in the early years, the individual might well not have known how old he/she (or their spouse or children!) really were.

Remember that most people were illiterate.


As a result, I usually ask in searches for birth year +/- 5 years ...... especially as people get older.


Also never blindly trust the birth place as given on a census.

1. A baby might have been born in one place, then moved as a very small child to another. As an adult, that person might well believe that they had been born in the second place.

2. The enumerator would ask "where were you born?". Person answered with the name of a very small village, farm or even house. Enumerator then said "Never heard of that! Where's it near then?"

The reply would be the name of a larger village or even small town, which the enumerator had heard of ........... and that's what he wrote down.


and hence we go haring off looking for someone born in somewhere he never was!


3. Consider the very strong dialects and accents that would have been the case back then. Someone who moved from Devon to, say, Manchester, would be hardly understandable (and vice versa!!) .................. so you might get an interpretation of what the enumerator thought he heard!



It all makes it the more challenging, and fascinating, for us descendants!



sylvia

well, I found a marriage of a Mary Couch to a William Colley in 1827 on beta.familysearch .......................... but there are many Mary Couch's marrying William's, and I don't honestly see how John determined this was the correct marriage


England Marriages, 1538–1973 for Mary Couch

Groom's Name: William Colley
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Mary Couch
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 01 Dec 1827
Marriage Place: Stoke Damerel,Devon,England
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name:
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M05242-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 916927
Reference Number:




William Colley is rather old for marrying for the first time in 1827 if he was indeed born in 1786 +/- 5 years.




sylvia

I'm also wondering how John knows it is Mary Couch


I found a couple of marriages of a William Colley to a Mary in the relevant area and time epriod ....... neither was to a Mary Couch!




sylvia

How can I find the parents of WILLIAM COLLEY born 1786 in Devon..
[married Mary Couch as above No.1 post]..... Trying to extend on the wife's Fam Tree....
John