Genealogy Chat

I have a Harry Elcock and wife Agnes who have five children - Agnes Gertrude 1886, William Frederick 1889, Mabe 1895l, Gladys 1897 and Hilda 1905.. They were born Romsey, Hampshire and were still doing so 1901. On 1911 census (I cannot find my note of this at the moment) both eldest daughter Agnes and son William are missing. I presumed William had married because also on the census was Dorothy Gertrude ELCOCK age 4 described as grand-daughter. I found a marriage for William to Helen Hebdige in 4Q 1909. I found three children for this marriage - none of which was Dorothy Gertrude. The three children were born 1909, 1913 and 1916 respectively. I then decided to look for a marriage for an Agnes Gertrude and found a marriage in 3Q 1906 to an Albert Richard Betteridge. Both of these marriages were Romsey. If this is the correct marriage for Agnes, she had two more children Rideley and Hartley. At this point it was decided to send for Dorothy Gertrude's birth certificate and what a shock when it arrived. She was born in The Gardens, Romsey (the Workhouse) Romsey on 25 September 1906 - mother Agnes Elcock and NO FATHER !! Obviously Dorothy was illegitimate so no chance of finding the father BUT the Agnes/Betteridge marriage was July/August/September 1906. I am wondering if Agnes gave birth, came straight out of the workhouse and her mother took over so that she could marry ??? I had more or less come to accept that this was probably the case but can't be sure. However, my next step was to look at William Frederick's military records (he was killed 1917). There on his papers were details of his children, the fact that his wife remarried, his kith and kin - mother and four sisters - but sister Agnes Gertrude referred to as GERTRUDE CLAYTON. It looked like she too had remarried and was known by her second name. This was understandable as her mother was also Agnes.. I tried to find a marriage of an Agnes Betteridge to ? Clayton between 1911 and 1919 - nothing. I then tried Gertrude Betteridge to Clayton. No joy. On the off-chance I also tried the same combination using Elcock. Nothing. Apart from her birth certificate and her appearance on 1911 census, I can find no reference - marriage/death for Dorothy. Any ideas what else I can do to solve these two problems? The area concerned is Romsey, Hampshire area. I would welcome any thoughts/ideas you may have. Thanks.

For reference..

1911

BETTERIDGE, Albert Head Married M 27 1884 Bricklayer Labourer Awebridge Hants VIEW
BETTERIDGE, Agnes Wife Married
4 years F 27 1884 Mottisfont Hants VIEW
BETTERIDGE, Redeley Gurtrude Daughter F 2 1909 Lockerley Hants VIEW
BETTERIDGE, Hartley Son M 0 (11 MONTHS) 1911 Lockerley Hants VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
6085 Reference:
RG14PN6085 RG78PN279 RD101 SD2 ED5 SN44

Registration District:
Romsey Sub District:
Michelmersh Enumeration District:
5 Parish:
Lockerley

Address:
Lockerley Green Romsey Hampshire County:
Hampshire




Nicky

Thank you for replyimg Nicki - for clarity, Mottisfont is an area of Romsey.

Wondering about this marriage...could her names have been reversed, and a marriage to Mr. clayton was after this one???

Marriages Jun 1915 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Betteridge Gertrude A Payne S.Stoneham 2c 175
Payne Herbert C L Betteridge S.Stoneham 2c 175




Nicky

Maybe not...found this Gertrude A Betteridge in 1911...


TOMKINS, William Steele Head Married
45 years M 74 1837 Civ Engineer Retired Broughton Hants VIEW
TOMKINS, Jane Wife Married
45 years F 69 1842 Wingsland Dorset VIEW
TOMKINS, Edith Marion Niece Single F 39 1872 Jersey VIEW
BUDD, Elizabeth Servant Single F 27 1884 Domestic Servant Hanwell Middx VIEW
ROBERTS, Alice Servant Single F 26 1885 Domestic Servant Romsey Hants VIEW
BETTERIDGE, Gertrude Alice Servant Single F 22 1889 Domestic Servant N Baddesley Hants VIEW
DEVEY, Frances Servant Widow F 42 1869 Domestic Servant Walsall Staff VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
6091 Reference:
RG14PN6091 RD102 SD1 ED1 SN222

Registration District:
Stockbridge Sub District:
Broughton Enumeration District:
1 Parish:


Address:
Broughton House Broughton Stockbridge Hampshire County:
Hampshire




Nicky

Thank you Nicki - I will bear this in mind as Stoneham is in the Hampshire area. Not sure how near Romsey, but certainly the right area.

Thanks again Nicki - I am drawn more to the marriage you found but am making a note of the census info as well even though both the do.b. and second christian name do not fit.

Have been at this for most of the day and my eyes are sore now so calling it a night. Will be back on tomorrow in case anone else has any good ideas. Thank you

Not found the marriage, but I noted on the Army forms re. kin, that sister Gertrude CLAYTON is living in Lewisham.
Freebmd shows CLAYTON births in that area, with mother's maiden name ELCOCK, from 1913 to 1923.
This might help with timing.

Gwyn

looks like she may have had 2 more children with Albert Richard Betteridge....

Name: BETTERIDGE, Dorothy M M
Registration District: Help Romsey
County: Hampshire
Year of Registration: 1912
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Mother's Maiden Name: Elcock
Volume No: Help 2C

Name: BETTERIDGE, Albert S
Registration District: Help Romsey
County: Hampshire
Year of Registration: 1915
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Mother's Maiden Name: Elcock
Volume No: Help 2C
Page No: Help 223


Nicky

looks like Hartley died...

Deaths Jun 1913 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Betteridge Hartley 3 Romsey 2c 119


Have found a marriage for Rideley in 1927 in Romsey....so looked like the family stayed in the area...



nicky

Looking again at the timing of events.......

Birth certificate shows Dorothy Gertrude born 25th September, but marriage of Agnes within same September quarter ie. on or before 30th September.
This seems unlikely, .... but not impossible.

I think you are going to need that marriage certificate. There are many BETTERIDGEs in the Romsey area and it may not be the same Agnes.

Gwyn

Agree with you Gwyn..think the cert. is a must.....there is another Betteridge/Elcock marriage as well, though its a female Betteridge marrying a male Elcock.

If the 2 children i posted above are the children of Agnes Gertrude then that can`t be her in Lewisham having children with a Mr. Clayton in 1913.....and i can`t find a marriage for them or a death for Albert Richard Betteridge.... think they may not have married....



Nicky

Gwyn ..does it give an address in Lewisham for Gertrude Clayton? ..if so I can do an address search in 1911 on FMP...



Nicky

I don't think so.... I'll just check.......

Yes... her address is...... * 6 Granville Road, Lewisham

I can't decide if the blob at * is a 2 ( ie 26 ) or whether it is a crossing out in order to just leave it at 6
I'd go for 26 first.....

EDIT
This information is given on the sheet detailing kin of the deceased
It is dated October 1919.

Gwyn

Checked every house in granville road Lewisham in 1911...

No Claytons/ Elcocks /Agnes Gertrudes or Gertrude Agnes`s...




Nicky

The more i look at this the more i think that the Agnes Elcock who had the baby in the workhouse in 1906 is not the same one who married Albert Richard Betteridge around the same time...


There are 2 Agnes Elcocks born Romsey area one in 1883 and one in 1886...can trace both up to 1901

Births Sep 1883 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ELCOCK Agnes Romsey 2c 98

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1886 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ELCOCK Agnes Catherine Romsey 2c 83



Neither are Agnes Gertrude note...though i have family who added on names after the childs birth reg or baptism, so it is possible.......

The marriage cert. will confirm as at least the fathers have different names....



Nicky

Nicki and Gwyn - thank you both so much for your efforts. It really is a mystery isn't it? I will study your replies later today as unfortunately I have two appts today which will prevent me getting online until late afternoon/earely evening. Thanks again both of you for trying. Seems to me the only absolute positive info we have is that Dorothy Gertrude Elcock age 4 in 1911 and born in Romsey wprkhouse is the grand-daughter of Harry and Agnes Elcock via one of their children !

Looking on this site in the SEARCH TREES section, it would seem that someone has Dorothy and Agnes in their tree.
You could click on his name to hopefully share more information.


Gwyn