Genealogy Chat

My maternal great great grandad Joseph Carter (Manchester) is shown as 'deceased ' on the marriage certificate of my great grandmother in 1903.

So he was dead by then, but alive and kicking in the 1891 census, where he's shown aged 30, born 1861.

So, sometime between 1891 and 1903 he has died, but disappeared.

Could he have been murdered and the body disposed of, and therefore gone unregistered? Was it compulsory to register deaths? Perhaps they buried him but forgot to register it?

Have you found the rest of his family in 1901 ?

Depending on his occupation he might have been out of his usual area when he died

Not unusual for couples to split and the wife claim to be a widow on next census. Saving face rather than saying her husband had left her

I see, thanks.

But on his daughter Ethel's marriage cert it does say " Father - Deceased".

Could it really be?

Ok, I will press on in the search for his death.

Have you found the couple in 1901? I presume his wife was Catherine and can't see her in 1901 and Ethel appears to be visiting friends

Not a regular viewer of the Jeremy Kyle show but I think it was last week, or might have been the week before, where a woman told her child that the father had been killed in an accident.

Well he was alive and kicking.

It happens now and it could well have happened back then. Perhaps the marriage was not a happy one and the mother lied to the children. Then the child when she got married she put her father as deceased as she would not have known any different. Also not unheard of for one partner to marry again while actually still married as divorce was only for the very rich

1891

CARTER, Joseph Head Married M 30 1861 Labourer Painters
Manchester
Lancashire VIEW
CARTER, Catherine Wife Married F 28 1863
Manchester
Lancashire VIEW
CARTER, Maria Daughter F 7 1884
Manchester
Lancashire VIEW
CARTER, Ethel Daughter F 4 1887
Manchester
Lancashire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG12 Piece:
3232 Folio:
116 Page:
22

Registration District:
Manchester Sub District:
Ancoats Enumeration District:
26 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St James the Less

Civil Parish:
Manchester Municipal Borough:
Manchester Address:
12, Spinner Street, Manchester County:
Lancashire




is this them in 1901 ?



1901

BLACKWELL, George Head Married M 37 1864 Gas Stoker M/c Corporation
Manchester
Lancashire VIEW
BLACKWELL, Kate Wife Married F 38 1863
Manchester
Lancashire VIEW
BLACKWELL, Mary Daughter F 4 1897
Manchester
Lancashire VIEW
CARTER, Martin Visitor Single M 17 1884 Cotton Doffers In Mill
Manchester
Lancashire VIEW
CARTER, Ethel Visitor Single F 15 1886 Spinners Scavenger In Mill
Manchester
Lancashire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG13 Piece:
3743 Folio:
45 Page:
15

Registration District:
Manchester Sub District:
Ancoats Enumeration District:
24 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Manchester St Jude

Civil Parish:
Manchester Municipal Borough:
Address:
99, Bradford Street, Manchester County:
Lancashire



Marriages Mar 1901 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>BLACKWELL George Manchester 8d 312
>>>>>>CARTER Catherine Manchester 8d 312
Drayton Sarah Ann Manchester 8d 312
SHAPLEY Robert Edward Manchester 8d 312

1911

BLACKWELL, George Head Married M 49 1862 Joiners Labourer Lans Manchester VIEW
BLACKWELL, Catherine Wife Married
10 years F 49 1862 Lans Manchester VIEW
BLACKWELL, May Daughter F 13 1898 School Lans Manchester VIEW
BLACKWELL, Rose Daughter F 11 1900 School Lans Manchester VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
24101 Reference:
RG14PN24101 RG78PN1385 RD466 SD1 ED13 SN46

Registration District:
Manchester Sub District:
Ancoats Enumeration District:
13 Parish:
Manchester

Address:
99 Bradford St Ancoats County:
Lancashire

BURNS Catherine
BLACKWELL George
Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Manchester MCR_RM/149/43


CARTER Catherine
BLACKWELL George Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Manchester
MCR_RM/149/43





definitely the right Catherine Carter -

Marriages Jun 1883 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Burns Catherine Manchester 8d 404
CARTER Joseph Manchester 8d 404

Glitter baby - thanks for that tidbit I've come across someone who on one census is a widow then her husband reappears on the next one.

Joe - I have on one of my marriage's father as being deceased but on later marriaages of other children it's not listed. It was suggested that maybe they fell out with each other.

Thanks all, yes you are right Catherine married George Blackwell in 1901, it is the right one.

I didn't know only the rich could divorce.

But Joseph Carter should STILL: have died at some point, and he doesn't seem to die at any point , before or after 1900.

Perhaps he ate Ready Brek?

haha... Gypsy Joe , I like what you say about them perhaps falling out...

Seems extreme, but I guess hatreds can run high.

Joe,

Just adding my two pennoth.

From my experience when the father is stated as deceased on a marriage certificate I always now regard that as questionable unless that fact is confirmed by a death certificate issued prior to the marriage. This is particularly so in the case of marriages up to about the mid 1930's if the father would still have been a relatively young man when the marriage took place.

Prior to the 1930's divorce was really only the prerogative of wealthy people so if a marriage broke down people often just moved on, some remarrying bigamously, others simply living with another partner as man and wife. I have discovered that often the children of the "First" marriage appear to have been told that their mother/father had died or when they themselves married it was easier to say that their birth father was deceased rather than have to explain the truth.

My mother in law is a perfect example. Her parents parted company in 1920 when she was just 5 years old. When she married in 1936, her marriage certificate names her father and indicates that he was deceased. In reality after his marriage broke down he had taken up with another woman who became his "Wife" although they never married. He died in 1961.

Thanks Jonesy,

Well, I just did a search and found this in 1933 -

Deaths Dec 1933
Carter Joseph Manchester S. 8d 91
aged 72.

This would put his birth at 1861 which is correct and the area is right....

it could well be....

Now I'll check if I can find him anwwhere else..

Jonesey,

If I may correct you, divorce was available to the poor (under certain conditions) rather earlier than the 1930s. My grandmother was divorced by her husband in 1917. Her husband was private soldier and had been a plasterer; in the records he is designated as a "Poor Person" and therefore did not have to pay court fees. This concession seems to have applied mainly in uncontested cases. However, in practice divorce was very difficult for people of limited means because the cases were held only in one court and that was in London.

Peter

I am not up on these things but I am sure I heard a woman could not divorce her husband only the other way round as you say peter...or was it a case of the woman did not have her own money in most cases as she was at home with the 10 kids so could not afford to divorce her husband?

jax

Hi there,
On my great grans wedding certificate is showed dad as dead. I looked for death and couldn't find it. Looked on the census and couldn't find him. she then moved in with someone else, and didn't divorce, couldn't afford it for most people on the rich and even then they didn't always. It took me over 5 years and then breakthrough, someone had spelled his place of birth wrong on the census and living in very poor lodging house and i the next census in a workhouse, where he sadly died and i now have his death certificate, so don't give up, try all things, including spelling mistakes made by the person collecting the census.
:D

Hi Joe..

My 3x gt grandparents married in 1860...in the 1861 census my 3x gt grandfather was missing and my 3x gt grandmother then pregnant was living with her parents.

She remarried some years later in another county and on the marriage cert she stated that she was a widow so I presumed that my 3x gt grandfather had died however I was unable to find a death.

I eventually found my 3x gt grandfather (a common surname) in the 1871 census living on the other side of England and had also remarried. On this marriage cert he declared he was a widower.

It left me wondering what could have happened until I found a small rather graphic newspaper article...my 3x gt grandfather had been sent down for 3 months in 1861 for beating up my 3x gt grandmother. That was something I wasn't expecting! Another skeleton in the cupboard!

Linda

Linda, I cant help wondering if he beat up his second wife as well.

Huia.

My Step grandmother managed to get a divorce in the 1920's it took over a year to process and cost her £26.0.0. She was a maid - we think grandfather gave her the money so he could marry again. He was a Chauffeur.