Genealogy Chat

Good to see that you have sorted your tree out.

You're very welcome to any help that we can give you.


As Cynthia said, come back if you need any more help.


You can always find this thread again by looking in My Threads in the box to the elft.




sylvia

Good to hear you are sorted Marina.

If you want to add any further information to your tree, then the MCA site is definitely the one to search. Vera and I have both spotted the same information and it's so interesting to see the actual handwritten records.

Come back to us if you need any more help.

Regards. Cx.

Hi sylvia.think my tree is now sorted but will do a lot more searching and double check it here goes james buggs+emma elizabeth spain; james buggs+louisa jarrad
james bnuggs+rachel hawkins;james buggs+mary weller;
richard buggs+mildred haysell; william buggs+mary plummer;john buggs+margaret messam;richard buggs+
elizabeth wyburn.so many thanks for your help.
best regards marina ;-)

sylvia hi.e-mailed a person on a tree to see if we had any
links and her tree had the wrong james such coombes
his spouse was racheal emily buggs and the census
match.his mother and father were edward coombes and
sarah buggs.and her parents were philip buggs and hannah nordish is that strange or what .i find it strange that the buggs name appears twice in the family but will do some more checking out thanks to every one who helped me great team marina :D

you're very welcome, Marina


and, no, many of the trees on ancestry cannot be trusted.


Too mnay people just copy the information from another tree, and never check that the information is correct.


You are doing the right thing in attempting to find your own information, and double checking.




sylvia

hi marina here the thought did cross my mind that some trees may not be right.have been checking out a few sites as well but keep coming up with the same answers as you
have .ido agree with what you have found and some of the paper work you have is more detailed than i have seen .i
shall make sure i copy that so i have them for keeps.i am
very grateful for all your hard work and couldnt have done it
without you guys.i have even been looking at graveyards.
thanks again. :D

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about James Buggs
Name: James Buggs
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Louisa Jarrad WIDOW************

Marriage Date: 12 Apr 1879
Parish: St James, Muswell Hill
County: Middlesex
Borough: Haringey
Father Name: James Buggs Tailor
Spouse Father Name John Smith Paper Maker Deceased

His address Woodchurch Kent
Her address St James Muswell Hill

James Buggs the groom is a Gamekeeper

Hello Marina.

When you have had a look through the help you've been given, let us know what you think. I am pretty sure that we have found the right parents for your James born 1795..

Don't worry too much about linking up with other people's trees as they may not have the right info so don't copy anything from anyone else unless you are sure it is right :D

Hope to hear from you soon. Cx

Marina

As Sylvia says no birth certs. I have had sight of the parish birth record for James on the CityArk site. It says the same as record already posted ie
Jan 4th 1795 Buggs James son of James and Mary.

Nothing additional on the register as is the norm.

I've looked for another marriage for James and Mary other than the one you know of already i.e. James and Mary Weller - nothing coming up at present.

Vera

hi cynthia and vera sorry not been in touch but skys internet
been down in south wales and the west country.thanks for your hard work.if i purchased a birth certificate would his
parents be on it? i dont know if i sent this message earlier
but am redoing it again just in case.thanks again will be in
touch later. marina ;-)

Marina


Registration of births, marriages and deaths did not start until July 1 1837


So, certificates are not available before that date.


Before July 1 1837, the only record is in the actual Parish Registers .......... many of these are now being slowly put onto the internet



and this is what we have all been finding for you.



Unfortunately, you will almost never find the names of BOTH parents on any marriage certificate, even up to the present day.


and not even the fathers' names appeared in early certificates, and especially not in the Parish Registers.



so I'm afraid the answer is NO.




sylvia

sorry havent got back to you sooner but skys internet was
down today for south wales and the west country so havent
been able to do anything. if i purchased a birth certificate
for james (1795) would his parents be on it? thanks to all
for your help will do some more looking later.
marina ;-)

Cynthia

Brilliant site but not sure I'm finding the easiest way to search. Maybe I'm expecting too much. Had to go through lots of jpegs but never mind top marks to the volunteers and you find lots of interesting things as you go.

Glad you confirmed that Morris surname.

Marina

There is a Jonathan Morris born in Higham in 1810 in 1841 and subsequent census he is unmarried. It is possible Jane was his sister not wife. EDIT
just realised could not be the same Jonathan as he would have been aged 12 at the time of the marriage.

Vera

Well spotted Vera.....I hadn't got round to Higham parish as I was still nose deep in Meopham!! :D


Definitely Jonahthan and Jane Morris....he could write his own name whilst she put her mark.

I just LOVE that site don't you?

Marina, stay with it and let us have your response. Keep checking back. :D


Cx

Marina

I found the original of the marriage cert Sylvia posted. It's on the site that Cynthia mentioned - Cityark.

Rachel Hawkins is a widow

Witnesses Jonathan and Jane ???? Morris

Unfortunately no parents listed.

Vera

Marina


If by "by changing his date of birth" you mean the year of birth as shown on a census


Please do NOT BE CONCERNED about that.



The census asked for the actual age of a person in YEARS on the night of the census

The census is not taken on the same date every time ..................... so the age on the census depends on the date of the census vs the person's actual birth date


It might be that that one census the person's birth day was two days AFTER the census, while on the next census the birth day was one month BEFORE the census


so ages can be out 1-2 years from census to census.



THEN, the current-day transcriber had to transcribe the AGE into YEAR of birth

you will note that the census record shows "abt 1833" .... that means approximately 1832 ...... based on the best guess of the transcription from actual age to year.


You also have allow for the fact that people often did not know how old they were, or remember how old their children were .............. birth days were just not as important to them as now.



For this reason, you should ALWAYS search records on year of birth +/-2


In fact, I rarely search on less than year of birth +/- 5, just to cover all bases.


Also .................. enumerators on the 1841 census were supposed to round DOWN ages over 15 to the nearest 5. Not all did it, but most did


so someone shown as 20 on the census was actually somewhere between 20 and 24.



Secondly, birth places


sometimes people did not know where they were born.


They might have been born in one village, but then grew up from a baby in another village ............. so they assume they were born in the second village.

Mum might have gone home to her mother for the birth, and then back home to husband. Or the family might have for father's job.


Another common so-called error could be caused by the enumerator

Joe says "I was born at Jones Farm"

enumerator asks "where's that then?"

Joe "at Ashfield"

enumerator "where's that then?"

Joe "near Ipswich"

enumerator "Ah, I know where that is, so I'll put you down as born in Ipswich".



remember always that most of our ancestors were illiterate, and some of the enumerators might not be much more literate.



In short, never be too dogmatic when searching!


Don't always expect to get the same birth year, birth place, same spelling of names, etc.




sylvia

Hi sylvia,yes all the info you sent me is spot on what is so
confusing is when they keep changing his date of birth
and birth place.so at least i know that that part of my tree
is correct .i've made the mistake of following other trees
and spent weeks checking it out only to find i'm not right
thanks for all your work much appriecated.i feel happier
now i know i am going in the right direction.
best regards and many thanks :-)

??? marriage of James and Louisa


from freebmd.org.uk

Marriages Jun 1879 (>99%)

Buggs James Edmonton 3a 285
Jarrad Louisa Edmonton 3a 285




James b. ca 1832 in 1861, with his parents?

1861 Census

Name: James Buggs
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
[1832]
Relation: Son
Father's name: James Buggs
Mother's name: Rachel Buggs
Gender: Male
Where born: Ash, Kent, England

Civil parish: Ash
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: Dartford
Sub-registration district: Farningham

James Buggs 65 b.ca 1796, Meopham, Kent, Postmaster
Rachel Buggs 65 b.ca 1796, Portsmouth, Hampshire
James Buggs 28




and in 1841?

1841 Census

Name: James Buggs
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
[1832]
Gender: Male
Where born: Kent, England

Civil parish: Ash
Hundred: Axton, Dartford and Wilmington
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: Dartford
Sub-registration district: Farningham

James Buggs 47 b.ca 1794, Kent, Tailor
Rachel Buggs 45 b.ca 1796, not born in Kent
Emily Buggs 17 b.ca 1824, Kent
Tabithy Buggs 15 b.ca 1826, Kent
James Buggs 8

Address:- Ash Street




sylvia

I know you have these, but I'm posting the various records in an attempt to get my head around the Buggs family


Is this your grandfather's baptism?

record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

name: James Buggs
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 05 Mar 1871
baptism/christening place: ORPINGTON,KENT,ENGLAND
father's name: James Buggs
mother's name: Louisa
indexing project (batch) number: C00837-2
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 992515


and is this him with his parents in 1881?

1881 census

Name: James Buggs
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
[1832]
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa Buggs
Gender: Male
Where born: Wrotham, Kent, England

Civil parish: Brenchley
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address: Cottage No 2
Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: Game Keeper

Registration district: Tunbridge
Sub-registration district: Brenchley

James Buggs 42
Louisa Buggs 40 b.ca 1841, Hale, Devon
Rose Buggs 12 b.ca 1869, St Marys Cray, Kent
James Buggs 10 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Lilly Buggs 9 b.ca 1872, Wrotham, Kent
Thomas Buggs 7 b.ca 1874, Wrotham



and in 1871??

Name: James Buggs
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
[1832]
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Lauria Buggs
Gender: Male
Where born: Ash, Kent, England
Civil parish: Sutton At Hone
Ecclesiastical parish: Canterbury
Town: Sutton At Hone
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Dartford
Sub-registration district: Dartford

James Buggs 34 Game Keeper
Lauria Buggs 30 b.ca 1841, Hale, Devon <<<<<< name corrected to Louisa
Rotas Buggs 2 b.ca 1869, Sutton at Hone, Kent <<<<<< name corrected to Rose
James Buggs 2 Months b.ca 1871, Sutton at Hone



sylvia

hi cynthia.have put in my new names into my tree still no matches the only one that matches mine is my 2nd cousin david spain and he can only get as far as my matches.i am
begining to think hes the scarlet pimpernal.yes i have asked others if my tree lines up with theirs but no joy.i have e-mailed some others but dont hold out any hope.ive searched on geni,and loads of other sites ,but many thanks
for allyour help at least i know that rachel and james are right.thanks again. best regards marina :S