Genealogy Chat

I have a mid 19C relative down as a 'sub architect's wife' . Does anyone know if this refers to simply an architects assistant, or would it refer to an architect of say sewers or canals:? The son was apprenticed to his father and in a later census was an architect himself, suggesting that his father was also qualified. Any help would be appreciated! Sue

Have you seen this occupation on a census? If so can you give the name and place so we can have a look at the entry?

Kath. x

Sub might mean subcontractor in this case, but it's hard to tell without any other details.

Rose

thank you for your replies - sorry, didn't realise I shouild have stayed on. The census refenrence is Ann Bell 1814 Shipston on Stour in the 1851 census. Her husband is Edward Bell 1801 living in Chelsea. He is listed as a Clerk of Works and the son as Civil Engineer. In the 1841 Edward snr is found in Greenhithe as a surveyor.
The son was Edward Ingress Bell, born at ingress Park, Greenhithe. He is in Wikipedea as a minor architect working in partnership with Sir Aston Webb.
I'm not sure where I got the info that he was apprenticed to his father - maybe i dreamed it.
Sue

Did you know that there is an Ingress Abbey in Greenithe which was rebuilt iaround this time using stone from the old London Bridge see http://www.greenhithe.co.uk/history/history-4.htm
This is could be what he was working on.

Kim

Edward J. Bell
England and Wales Census, 1881
birth: 1837 — Greenhithe, Kent, England
christening:
baptism:
death:
burial:
residence: 1881 — Epsom, Surrey, England
parents:
spouse: Elizabeth M. Bell
child: Alice M. Bell
marriage:

record title: England and Wales Census, 1881
name: Edward J. Bell
age: 44
gender: Male
birth year: 1837
birthplace: Greenhithe, Kent, England
relationship to head of household: Head
marital condition: Married
profession / occupation: Architect Employed In War Office
address: Laburnum Rd
census place: Epsom, Surrey, England
record type: Household
family history library film: 1341178
the national archives reference: RG11
piece / folio: 0761 / 119
page number:

I think it would refer to an Architect's Asst.

Much earlier in the 18th cent, the Inst of Civil Engineers was founded. Its first president was Thomas Telford, who trained as an architect, but was most widely known as a civil engineer, building the Menai Straits Suspension Bridge, the Caledonian Canal, St Katherines Docks (now yacht basin) by Tower Bridge, and improving the A5 - a typical range of civil engineering projects - in the US the Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for dams and dredging inland waterways. Telford did do classical architectural work, too. He produced a master plan that was used to provide "parlamentary" churches to abt 40 churchless parishes.

The Civil Eng Dept labs (at Brunel U) are named the Joseph Bazalgette Laboratories (or JBL) in honour of one the outstanding civil engineers of the Victorian Period. Sir Joseph Bazalgette’s is most noted for constructing London's Sewerage System.

These are just a couple of examples illustrating the use of Civil Engineer by 1820 and later (thru today).

Tried to find your reference to read the census, but did not show up on ancestry. Was she born or living in Shipston on Stour, and is that Warwickshire?
Sorry to be a nuisance.

Same here Patchem. I think the pop-up box on Ancestry said Worcestershire. Not in Chelsea with husband.

Vera

For reference. Looks like sub architect#s wife.


1851 England Census
about Ann Bell Name: Ann Bell
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1814
Relation: Wife
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Gravsenend, Kent, England

Civil parish: Chipping Campden
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Shipston On Stour
Sub-registration district: Campden
ED, institution, or vessel: 9b and 10b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 42
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Bell 37
Mary Bell 25
Eller Bell 12
Jane Bell 4



View original image
View

Vera

Thanks for census info, Vera.
If you look at how the enumerator has written Scholar, the S there is very pointed at the top. For the word in question, it is almost nearer to a T, but probably must be Sub

Thank you again everyone - lots of things to think about there. Didn'r know about Ingress Abbey being rebuilt, and the info on civil engineering I would never have found out for myself . It is all really interesting stuff. I have a feeling Ann was seperated from Edward as I have traced her through the census' and she seems to become poorer as the years go by.
The one I am actually researching is the Mary Bell living at Shipston on Stour , maybe Ancestry has it down as Chipping Camden? I know her whereabouts from 1851 - she married a Coventry watchmaker called William Beesley - but no one seems to have details on her antecedants except what we have found of Edward Senior, her father who at the time of her marriage in 1853 was iving at Melvin Street Bradford (which doesn't seem to exist), and from her birth record Dec 1825 at Egglestone Durham, mother was named Elizabeth. I guess the family did not live in Durham as Mary did not know the correct spelling of Egglestone until a later census.
Family gossip states that she was well born and educated but disinherited for possibly running away with a servant.. Others of her descendants were told that her story was the inspiration for Lady Chatterley... Hmm, juries out on that one! But I would love to find her mother and fathers families and also where she was herself in the 1841 census - trouble is there were so many Mary Bells!
Anyway thank you all for your help, best wishes, Sue

Mary's not really living at Shipston on Stour - the 1851 addy is Church St, Chipping Campden (which happens to lie in Shipston on Stour Rego District). It's abt 12km W of Shipston on Stour.

Wow - thanks mgnv! I will check if the road still exists - i would love to know what sort of house she was living at..

If you go on Google maps and use Street View you can see the houses in Church Street.

On the census the Bell's lived in the sixth household after the Eight Bells Inn. This Inn and the houses in Church Street look as though they have been there for a long time so could be the same ones where she lived.

Kath. x

SJB

On Durham Records Online the father of Mary Bell born 18 December 1825 at Eggleston.is said to be a gardener. Is this the same Edward who was later married to Ann?

Vera

And again - wow! I'm so grateful for all this help. I'm wondering now if the servant, sometimes actually called a gardener, story in fact referred to the mother not the daughter? Though would he have become a surveyor/architect from what seems a humble beginning? Or was he being modest? On Mary's marriage certificate of 1853 (apparently, I've not seen it) he is a builder.

Luckily there seem to have been few Edward Bells in the early census' so I traced him in the 1841 to Swanscombe in Kent where he is living with Ann, son Edward and daughter Ellen. I'm assuming it is the same Edward since Mary was in 1851 living with Ann and the daughter. Of course, it could be the wrong Mary Bell on the birth record, but she seems to be the only one at Eggleston around the right time with a father callled Edward. I got this from records recently published on Find my Past.

I'm happy to find out that Mary in 1851 was living in Chipping Campden, I had traced Church st Shipston on S to a modern day industrial estate! It prompted me to search for other Bells in CC. there is only one,a John Bell of Scotland, lodger. Fellow lodgers were a draper (seems to be one of only two in the town, Mary at the time was a drapers assistant) and the house was owned by a family called Hands. She married a William Beesley of Coventry in 1853 who lived next door to a family of that name. Indeed, years later Mary's son marrried Charlotte Hands from next door whom she had taught to play the piano!

Coincidence, maybe, but might explain how on earth she managed to meet William who presumably worked from home.

Sue x

SJB

It's great how ou have tracked this family. Ann, as you know has been in Kent, Yorkkshire, Gloucestershire and Lincolnshire. Edward was not always there at the time of the census but the family continued to grow.

It would be nice to find out a bit more about Elizabeth.. The gardener, builder, clerk of works, architect is a bit puzzling but that's what makes it interesting.

Regards

Vera

Since I presume you've seen Mary's baptism, just out of interest, who's Mary's mum? Ann 1851 seems a bit young, so I'm wondering if Mary's Ann's step-daur.

I found Emily Bell this afternoon Vera, born 1846 in Gravesend, mother Anna father Edward. In 1861 aged 16 she was working as a governess at a farm in Rutlandshire. I looked up the farmer on Ancestry and found someone had a photo of him taken in the early 1860's!
In 1851 she was a child living with her grandmother and aunt in Gravesend, Jane and Elizabeth Monk, both almswomen. Jane it says was a former butchers wife. Lots of unexpected info there) The fact that she was with relatives indicates to me that Ann's stay in Chipping Campden was temporary.

I've ceased to care that Ann and daughters were not actually ancestors...

I'm not sure how to proceed with Elizabeth. Maybe more records will turn up.

When I first looked at this family a year ago having heard the gardener tale from others, I was looking for a rich, maybe titled family. This was before I knew the name of Mary's father. Some of her children had 'catholic' names so I searched the census' for others of those names, hoping to find a father. There was an architect who worked on Egglestone Hall called Ignatious Bonomi. He had abrother Joseph who was associated with Ingress abbey and also somewhere in Helmsley, all places that Mary and Ann turned up. I'm still half convinced that they figure somewhere along the line.

As you say, endlessly fascinating..
Sue x